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War Crimes
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Felix Rex  Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 6:01 pm Posts: 16661 Location: On a slope 
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  btw, generalizing about the US not waging war well outside of europe is wrong. We did well in asia as well, more or less. World war II and Korea were "victories" ... WWII a total victory, Korea a partial. South Korea, Japan, and the Phillipines are all very friendly to the US. Korea and Japan grew into serious first or second world economies (not sure if Korea is first or second world).
Anyway Israel did try to make peace the proper way. Hell, they even basically gave Palestinians a huge piece of land back and the ability to govern themselves. Rather than chill the hell out, terrorist attacks continued...and on top of that, the palestinians killed each other in infighting. Wooo. _________________ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. |
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| Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:19 pm |
 
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Minor Diety  Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 12:31 pm Posts: 3334 Location: Belgium
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Well i don't know about Israel being all that generous, if you look at the situation before the 6-day war in 1967 they had a lot less territory.
This situation is so complex and carries so much history in it, that it's insane to think that this situation will get a fix like this. Quite frankly the only way i see this 'solved' is to drop a huge bomb on the whole area (middle-east) ... but that's not ideal either of course 
For every victim that falls by hands of Israel in this war, another 'martyr' is created and a lot more potential suicide bombers will be willing to be blinded by the beliefs of some crazy fanatics. I completely agree with Ox on: "I never saw a bunch of desperate extremists become LESS likely to hate and kill Israelis because Israel decided to bomb their country to pieces." I wonder if anyone ever said that line to the politicians, either they're stupid or they don't care, i dunno. But if they have a bit of a brain they must realise this as well, right? _________________ Beter een pens van het zuipen dan een bult van het werken! ~King of Thieves~ |
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| Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:53 am |
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King  Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:18 pm Posts: 1976 Location: Sexy Town
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and likewise the opposite. Extremist will continue to attack Israel whether its bombing Lebanon or twiddling its thumbs. They hate jew's. Mothers send their kids out with bomb attached to them to blow up buses full of Israel's. They where doing that before all this mess started. Its not like not attacking Lebanon is really going to stop extremist muslims from attacking Israel. I heard a interesting solution to this problem. Internationalise Jerusalem. Divide it up so christians, muslims and jews can all worship freely. Make it and international zone so it belongs to noone. _________________ Contrary to popular belief, America is not a democracy, it is a Chucktatorship. 
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| Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:27 am |
 
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Felix Rex Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 6:01 pm Posts: 16661 Location: On a slope
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who controls it? The UN? You'd still need a police force, sanitation, repairs would need to be done, citizens would have to pay taxes, schools would have to be built and run, etc. All the inconveniences of modern civilization.
Not that I don't think the idea has merit. I seriously doubt it'll happen, though. _________________ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. |
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| Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:42 am |
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King Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:18 pm Posts: 1976 Location: Sexy Town
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Probably a world coalition peace keeping force? Maybe the un? I dont know. Does it matter? Its not like what they been doing for the past 5,000 years has worked. At this point we should be willing to try anything that doesnt include one side annihilating the other.
_________________ Contrary to popular belief, America is not a democracy, it is a Chucktatorship.
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| Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:29 am |
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Felix Rex Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 6:01 pm Posts: 16661 Location: On a slope
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perhaps we could form a coalition and annihilate both sides? Or just blow Jerusalemn up for good. Go grab a nice, phat 50 megaton nuclear device and detonated it in the center of the city...or over the city for the happy friendly airburst effect.
Not that it would help to blow it up. You'd probably have people fighting over scraps of radioactive wasteland at that point. *sigh* Religion should be regulated like drugs. It's the cause of way too many problems. _________________ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. |
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| Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:25 am |
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Minor Diety  Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2003 7:23 am Posts: 14892 Location: behind a good glass of Duvel
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Well, can I just point out that... -Hezbollah only started firing missiles at Israel (not EVER, but in recent times) after the Israelis started bombing the country. -Israel was in Lebanon with its patrol and therefore the Hezbollah attacked/captured the patrol. Wtf were the Israeli troops doing in lebanon? -the Hezbollah uses children as a 'human shield' by seeking shelter in civilian homes etc; but as far as I know I never heard about children being used as suicide bombers. Young men and women, sure, but not children. They might be extremists but they tend to kinda like their children too y'know. 
You're right that they hate the Israelis and everything they stand for, and that this is an awful mess were both sides are guilty though. I don't know what should be done next either...but what's happening now isn't a solution. And in the current state of affairs, lebabon is being FUCKED big time. Almost a thousand dead, thousands of wounded, a million (!) people on the run, destroyed infrastructure and a humanitarian disaster pending. Israel has 80 ppl killed since the beginning of the conflict, and some infrastructural damage. Even a blind man can see who should be the bigger 'man' of the two and try to initiate talks. Actually Hezbollah already offered a deal: stop the attack on lebanon and they'd stop firing missiles at Israel (and won't attack Tel Aviv). Israel ignored it, obviously. Meh, it just bugs me that israel has precision bombers and still hits places that have crapola to do with the Hezbollah. They hit a customs office yesterday where laborers were unloading fruit harvests, killing 30. Wtf? It's like their accidental bombing of that UN post. They know fucking well what they are doing, and it sucks. Check this out http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/ ... index.html israel isn't hitting the hezbollah with its attacks, it's hurting civilians more than anything else. And they admit they killed almost double as many civilians than Hezbollah warriors too. I think that fits war crimes, but I guess it doesn't count if you're Israel. Oh yeah, israel deliberately causing humanitarian disaster by bombing roads and bridges. http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/ ... index.html _________________ "I find a Burger Tank in this place? I'm-a be a one-man cheeseburger apocalypse." - Coach |
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| Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:25 am |
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Felix Rex Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 6:01 pm Posts: 16661 Location: On a slope
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That's not what's been said on the news. The news here pretty flatly states the Hezbollah came over the border and attacked an Israeli patrol. _________________ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. |
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| Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:41 am |
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Minor Diety Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2003 7:23 am Posts: 14892 Location: behind a good glass of Duvel
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I know they do, and some sources say it was the other way around. Knowing the little impact Lebanon has on the Western media and how big Israel's impact is (especially on the US media -lots of jewish guys in charge there) it's not strange that the "they came to Israel" version is more widely reported.
But like I said to Arathorn before: why would a relatively large group of Hezbollah fighters cross the (extremely well-guarded!) border with Israel, only to engage a patrol, kill most soldiers in it and capture two? Bearing in mind that the equipment and training of the Israeli patrol is vastly superior to what the Hezbollah guys have....and yet they were all killed but two of them. That indicates this group of Hezbollah warriors was big -at least 20-30 people. I'm not saying it has to make absolute sense, cos some things just don't. But you don't just cross the Israeli border with a large group of armed men and kill an entire patrol. It makes no sense whatsoever. The Hezbollah guys aren't exactly defending the borders against possible strike points for Israeli terrorists. What does make sense is Israel patrolling inside the Lebanese territory...because their border guard is crap, and because the patrol would be checking the area close to the border for possible transit/attack points of Hezbollah. Now, I'm not exactly a military man, but i think it's fair to say it's more likely the Israelis were in Lebanon than the other way around.  _________________ "I find a Burger Tank in this place? I'm-a be a one-man cheeseburger apocalypse." - Coach |
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| Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:06 pm |
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King Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:18 pm Posts: 1976 Location: Sexy Town
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If Israel crossed the boarder does that really justify kidnapping their soldiers? I dont think so. Hezbollah knew what it was doing when it kidnapped thsoe soldiers. Its was to provoke them. They wanted to kidnap those soldiers so they could use that as a bargining tool to release muslim.
Also, Lebenon reject the US- French cease fire resolution. http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060806/D8JATNUO0.html
So whats wrong with that? The Lebonese gov doesnt want Israel to strike back if Hezbollah breaks a cease fire? What a crock of shit. Also, Rinox I think your not giving enough respect to the Hezboula forces. http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060806/D8JATDO80.html
Yea they really sound like they are militaryly weak. And lets not forget Syria is arming them. _________________ Contrary to popular belief, America is not a democracy, it is a Chucktatorship.
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| Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:14 am |
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Minor Diety Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2003 7:23 am Posts: 14892 Location: behind a good glass of Duvel
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Of course killing and kidnapping the soldiers isn't justifiable, but the point is that Israel 'provoked' them in the first place if they actually were in lebanon. They had no right being there, and given the history between both countries they knew full well that crossing the border is dangerous. The Israeli border forces would have killed any Hezbollah fighters coming to Israel too, you know.
The reason why Lebanon refuses to sign the UN ceasefire is not because they won't be allowed to fire rockets at Israel without striking back, rather a case of (misplaced) pride over the whole thing. The ceasefire sounds like a surrender, and even tho there's no way lebanon would have won a war against Israel they like to think they would have. I wished they'd sign it too but hey, they're all morons. I know hezbollah is firing a crapload of rockets to Israel, but they're not very effective. Most of them aren't even filled with decent explosives but with shit like ball bearings. Dangerous crap for sure, but not exactly an equivalent to the Israelis' higtech precision bombing with heavy explosives. Like I said, the count of dead is about 1000 Lebanese vs. 90 Israelis. And most of the Israeli dead are soldiers, whereas the Lebanse are a majority of civilians. Hezbollah is an effective guerilla force, but for full out attacking a well-armed and well-prepared nation like Israel they fall way short. It's probably true they get help from surrounding nations, but im that doesn't excuse bombing all bridges entering the major areas etc. They're also seriously handicapping any food and medical supplies coming through. They can't just tell the entire Sotuh of lebanon to 'move because we're gonna bomb the bad guys' and then bomb bridges up North, thereby denying a huge mass of fleeing people (1 million of them) food and help. It's a disgrace. _________________ "I find a Burger Tank in this place? I'm-a be a one-man cheeseburger apocalypse." - Coach |
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| Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:46 am |
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King Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:18 pm Posts: 1976 Location: Sexy Town
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_________________ Contrary to popular belief, America is not a democracy, it is a Chucktatorship.
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| Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:08 pm |
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Minor Diety Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2003 7:23 am Posts: 14892 Location: behind a good glass of Duvel
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Like I said, they're firing a crapload of missiles without too much effect. Here's a graphical representation of the death count on both sides
http://www.moiz.ca/coffin.htm A large part of the Isreali deaths are soldiers in Lebanon. Keeping in mind that there are still quite a few bodies buried beneath the rubble in Lebanon the difference is likely to become even bigger. And I mean, look at the title of the article:
killing 6 people with 400 rockets isn't exactly my idea of a devastating military attack.  _________________ "I find a Burger Tank in this place? I'm-a be a one-man cheeseburger apocalypse." - Coach |
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| Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:49 am |
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King Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:18 pm Posts: 1976 Location: Sexy Town
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So they have fired about 2,700 rockets into Israel. Just because they havent done much damage or killed as many people doesnt mean it should get blown off. They are still launching rockets with intent to harm. It doesnt make them any better than Israeli's.
_________________ Contrary to popular belief, America is not a democracy, it is a Chucktatorship.
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| Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:24 am |
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Felix Rex Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 6:01 pm Posts: 16661 Location: On a slope
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if Hezbollah wanted to stop the fighting, I'm sure Israel would listen. It would just require them to stop shooting rockets for a bit and ask for a cease fire while terms were laid out. But they're not going to do that, because they're crazy little fundamentalist bastards who don't mind killing innocent people (or having innocent people killed on their side).
I think Israel should just skip the middle man and jump right into Syria. _________________ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. |
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| Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:24 am |
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