So what exactly have you "amounted" to in your life? What makes your life so much more "amounted" than that of a mentally retarded person? I mean you father could have looked at you and said "this baby wont amount to anything". A person worth is soley based on the opinion of the person observing him. I could look at you and deem you "worthless" and look at your life and say "Satis hasnt amounted to anything". Just because a retard child has mental or physical limitations doesnt mean they wont amount to anything.

And what do you base your amounted value on? Do they amount to something if they graduate highschool? Go to college? Play sports? Get married? What if your amounted value is you want them to graduate college. What happens when you have a normal baby and they never go to college. Have they all of a sudden amount to nothing? Then they are no greater than the retarded baby you didnt want.

Of course i doubt that such an indefinite claim as "never amount to anything" is intentional. However, one way you coould justify such bold statement could be by looking at the pro's and con's of the life of a child. If the cons outweigh the pros, then you could argue that the child infact has not amounted to anything. Mind you, this is a retrospective method.



The basis of this value would probably be focused on the established and de facto morals of society.

Apart from the rest of the discussion, I think women (and women alone) should have the right to make decisions with regard to keeping a child or not. The involvement as a man stops where the fun ends, so I don't think we have any claim on a woman's body, discomforts or pain.

Besides, in any healthy relationship a woman will talk with her partner about keeping the child or not, and may be influenced/persuaded to do so even if she didn't orginally want to. I don't think there's any need for a legal "share" for men in terms of abortion.

I think any life where you are never able to break your dependence on others could be considered a worthless life. Most retarded people are always dependent on some sort of caregiver. I had an aunt that was like that...she died when she was in her fifties, I think, and lived with her mother her whole life. What kind of life is that? Both for her and for her mother?

Anyway, it's another value judgement, so we could probably argue until we turned blue without getting anywhere. I think it comes down to our beliefs on human life. You believe human life has inherent value. I don't.

That is fine if you think I am conceited about not wanting a retarded baby. Frankly I unlike most parents realize I would not make a good parent so I obstane from bringing them into the world. Some may see that as conceit some may consider that responcible that I know when I should not be a parent.

Congrats on your apending child BTW.

Do I think we should abort children because they do not have blue eyes? No! Would I have an abortion if I got knocked up? Probably not. But the fact still remains I am not going to bring a child into this world that has a defect that will say give it 2 months to live. I personally do not think that is the responcible thing to do. I am an animal lover, but I realize there is a point you need to out down a dog, cat bird etc. I only wish we could decide when to put ourselves to a humane death instead of shitting on ourselves when we go out to dinner because we can no longer understand we are going. Then face the embarrasment to ones dignity when they understand that they shit themselves in public. So to me abortion and euthinasia is along the same lines. But regardless you can not force myself to do anything I don't want to do with my body.

Case in point - a friend of mine became pregnate at 15 - her parents would not let her get an abortion. Funny how her child still died because she decided to take large amounts of drugs. Which is more humane. I am not saying right simply humane.

Ok, then I got a question for you and shiney. You and shiney say that if you had a child that was retard, messed up, or in someway not normal you would not want to have it.

What happens when you have a normal baby then at age 6 he gets hit by a drunk driver and is paralized from the neck down? According to Satis he has just become worthless because he will need to depend on others for the rest of his life. Especially his parents. So what now? Are your feelings for your child different because he was normal and now hes not?

What exactly is the difference of 6 years? How is one child who is born dependent(IE retarded) different from a child 6 years later that is made that why by an accident?






Thank you btw

welp, we've already come to the conclusion (as a society) that people don't become human until they've been in the womb for so long...like 4 months or 6 months or something. However, once they're 6 years old, they're old enough for cognitive thought. And I think a 6 year old should have the option to stop living if they so choose. I think that right should extend to everyone at any age. I right to life is also a right from life.

So your saying the 6 year old should want to end his life because hes paralized for life and you as his parent would want him to stop living?

Also, you didnt answer my question about how you would feel toward the child in paralizing accident. Is he now worthless? Do you still want him? How is a 6 year old retarded child who can at least go to the bathroom on his own different from a normal 6 year old who has been paralized for life and needs you to change his colostomy bag?

Sorry shall we get to the point here. The children that are being aborted happened to have simple medical conditions that are quite easy to cure- clubfoot and aren't too hard to cure, in fact it doesn't need surgery now. The only reason why the mothers asked for an abortion is because of the clubfeet. That is not a good enough reason for abortion IMO.

I could not agree more.

Just think of how much mental retards walk on the streets every day, with their 'perfect' feets. Do they deserve more to live?

Think of how many rapeist murders walk around with normal feet.

Still waiting for a answer to my previous post btw.

We're discussing different things.

Abortion is legal. I can abort a perfectly healthy baby if I want to. It's totally my right to abort a child that has some sort of defect, regardless of what the defect is. You guys are totally missing the point.... abortion is legal! I could abort a child for absolutely no reason at all other than that I want an abortion. Why should it matter if I have a reason of some sort? It doesn't. Either abortion is legal, or it isn't, end of story. You're just trying to force your values on other people without respect for law and the other persons' rights.

And what I want to do regarding a kid that got paralyzed is completely immaterial. What we're discussing is abortion. Abortion is legal. Euthanasia is not legal, and that's a completely different discussion. I'm willing to discuss that too, but it is 100% entirely unrelated to abortion. Abortion != euthanasia.

I think your answer is obvious. Yea abortion is legal , Im not arguing that. That doesnt make it right just because its legal, Im not arguing that either. And if one day your child gets in a accident and is paralized from the neck down, its your choice to call him worthless or not. Just remember, one day your going to be need to depend on other people to care for you.

retarded/crippled/paralized child != worthless

Yes Satis I know you have a perfectly good opinion but the fact is that the only reason the mother wants the baby aborted is because it had a clubfoot that I'm annoyed with. Usually I'm pro-abortion on this issue.

11B I think you are u;tra pushy on this subject because of your own personal situation currently. As I said and meant congrats. However to me there is a huge difference between a 6 year old and an unborn thing that could not yet live on it's own. If you want to think I am cruel fine but you don't know me and your opinion does not bother me as I see we will not ever gain common ground on this issue. I am ok with the fact that we disagree. I find some of those people who are holyer than though are often some of the biggest hypocrates. Case in point I will not kill an unborn child but I will not bother to stop my car and pick up a stray dog because it might get mud in my car. Both are living things so one has a right to live and the other is ok if he can make it on his own? I understand there is a stretch in thinking to some people but my dogs, cat, turtles are my children and I would do anything for them and have gone through extreames for them. The difference is I chose to take care of them for the long hall when I decided to bring them into my home or they were forced into my home. So, if I chose to have a child and he or she was in a horriable accident at age 6 - that would be just another of the things I would have to endure because I made a committment to take care of something.

However, that does not change my view that I have the right to not have the thing grow inside me regardless of health, or that I don't have the right to not pick up that cute puppy at the pound. I know what I feel I can take care of and make it have a good life. Not just a life but a good one. So before you decide what you feel your morals are and project them on oneself maybe you should step back and understand I for one am glad we have differences. I however, don't see that I need to force those views on other people to feel better about myself. We get that you think abortion is wrong and we get that satis and I think it is fine and legal. We are not going to change either persons mind. I examine my beliefs if they are to be part of my value system. They were not handed down to me from mom and dad, or the church, or school. I follow my values that I have adopted and I am secure in them. I am however very annoyed that you do not see that this is my right regardless of how you feel to do as the law provides. I also believe that I am sick of going over the same arguements with you so this will be my last thread on the subject because we will never come to common ground. I will never convince you to change your mind or me change mine. So you will have to deal with the fact that babies are being aborted. Sorry it bothers you, but it bothers me that people have children that they have out of duty then treat them like crap, fail to take care of them, use them as a vice or excuse etc. It bothers me that people get dogs because they are cute puppies then release or dump them on the side of the road when they are no longer cute.