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It is currently Mon Oct 21, 2024 8:44 pm
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ethics and morality: a discussion
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ElevenBravo
King
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:18 pm Posts: 1976 Location: Sexy Town
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So why not just open the borders? Just let everyone who wants in to come, come in? If its not such a bad thing to have illegal immigrant just shut down border guards and open the gates? Why not?
If someone started living in your backyard, set up a tent and started living there would you still "admire them for their courage?" What if they did take your job and left you jobless, would you still think they are couragouse?
So if you see a group of ilegals standing on the corner how do you know they arnt all escape convicts from their country? You dont, you dont know and neither do the police. So just let them go about their business?
What if illegal immigrants where your #1 crime risk in your city. Are they still couragouse?
_________________ Contrary to popular belief, America is not a democracy, it is a Chucktatorship.
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Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:50 pm |
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ElevenBravo
King
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:18 pm Posts: 1976 Location: Sexy Town
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Aww, A perfect story for this topic
Town Uses Trespass Law to Fight Illegal Immigrants
| | | | Quote: The New York Times July 13, 2005 Town Uses Trespass Law to Fight Illegal Immigrants By PAM BELLUCK
JAFFREY, N.H., July 12 - One day in April, Jorge Mora RamÃrez stopped his car on the side of a road in the small southern New Hampshire town of New Ipswich and was making a cellphone call when a police officer approached him.
The officer questioned Mr. RamÃrez, a 21-year-old Mexican who acknowledged that he was in the country illegally, and the New Ipswich police tried to get federal immigration authorities to arrest him. But when immigration officials demurred, not considering him a priority given scarce enforcement resources, the police acted on their own. They took the highly unusual step of charging Mr. RamÃrez with criminal trespassing, and held him overnight.
"I wanted the federal government to understand that I was going to take some type of action," said the New Ipswich police chief, W. Garrett Chamberlain. "If I can discourage illegal aliens from coming to or passing through my community, then I think I've succeeded."
At a minimum, Chief Chamberlain has succeeded in creating controversy, as well as interest in his idea. Not far away, the police chief in Hudson, N.H., has charged 10 illegal immigrants with criminal trespassing in recent weeks. Other police departments, in states that include California, Florida and Georgia, have called Chief Chamberlain, and immigration experts say that if the New Hampshire charges are upheld, some local law enforcement officials around the country will most likely copy the approach.
The case against Mr. RamÃrez, who lives in Waltham, Mass., and was working as a construction worker here in Jaffrey when he was charged, is also being watched by civil liberties advocates and the Mexican government, which is paying for his lawyers. The matter went to court on Tuesday in Jaffrey/Peterborough District Court, where the defense asked Judge L. Phillips Runyon III to dismiss the case, arguing that immigration enforcement was the federal government's job and that the New Hampshire criminal trespassing statute was intended to apply to those intruding on private property, not to illegal immigrants.
"What the state is attempting to do here is to step into the federal government's shoes and determine whether a person is licensed or able to remain in the United States," said one defense lawyer, Randall Drew.
The prosecutor, Nicole Morse, argued that local police agencies had a right to cite illegal immigrants.
"Just as with a sex offender," Ms. Morse said, "the hope is that they will go and register with the state. And if they don't, then they are violating the law.
"Indeed, the state's interest in this case is security. Being able to identify people who are in our community is essential to the police being able to maintain and keep the peace."
Judge Runyon deferred his decision on whether to dismiss the case until he could hear similar motions in the cases from Hudson. But his questions to both sides underscored the combustible and sensitive nature of immigration enforcement in a post-9/11 world.
On the one hand, he said to defense lawyers, "in this day and age when everyone is so worried about having terrorists in our midst, if a local law enforcement person is dealing with somebody that can't show some basis for their lawfulness of being here," and "they can't get any kind of response that seems to answer their questions from Immigration, are they just hamstrung?"
On the other hand, he told the prosecutor, some immigrants might "have a driver's license from Germany or France but don't have any other papers" with them. "Are you suggesting that those people are going to be charged criminally," he said, "because the police can't figure out that they're supposed to be where they are?"
Noting that if Mr. RamÃrez was found guilty, he would be sentenced to nothing more than a $1,000 fine, not jail time, the judge also asked the prosecutor, "How is national security or even local security enhanced by giving someone a citation?"
In a state that is 96 percent non-Hispanic white but that has been seeing a rise in its Hispanic population, Chief Chamberlain's idea was born a year ago when he encountered a van with nine illegal immigrants from Ecuador. The federal Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, he says, was not interested in arresting them. He decided that in the future he would use the state's criminal trespassing law, which says that a person is guilty "if, knowing he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in any place."
Even some critics of the New Hampshire citations, like Susan J. Cohen, a Boston immigration lawyer, said the law's broad language made it seem applicable to immigration.
Ms. Cohen said most states' criminal trespassing laws referred specifically to private property and could not be easily applied to immigration. But Kris W. Kobach, a law professor at the University of Missouri-Kansas City, who was counsel to John Ashcroft when Mr. Ashcroft was attorney general, said he believed that New Hampshire's wording was not unusual, and added that the charges were appropriate because the government "has always been careful to invite and encourage local assistance with immigration arrests."
Not every police department would take such a tack. In Nashua, N.H., which has a growing Hispanic population, the deputy police chief, Don Conley, said that "I don't think it's in the true spirit of New Hampshire's criminal trespass law."
Opponents like Arnie Alpert, New Hampshire coordinator of the American Friends Service Committee, say such citations will discourage immigrants, legal and illegal alike, from cooperating with police officers. And Porfirio Thierry Muñoz-Ledo, the Mexican consul general in Boston, who attended Tuesday's hearing, said, "The concern is that we are dealing in a state court with matters that belong to a federal level."
Judge Runyon seemed somewhat concerned about that as well.
"Am I going to determine whether someone is here legally or not?" he asked the prosecutor. "Isn't that what the federal immigration system is for? Is it for part-time district court judges like me who know nothing about immigration and arguably nothing much about anything else either?"
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_________________ Contrary to popular belief, America is not a democracy, it is a Chucktatorship.
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Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:04 pm |
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Arathorn
Minor Diety
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 10:23 am Posts: 3956 Location: Amsterdam
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Your example is nice, Ox, but that's only a minority. Most immigrants don't succeed in making a living. Borders are getting opener for high-educated immigrants though, although you might wonder wether such a braindrain is good for developing countries.
_________________ Melchett: As private parts to the gods are we: they play with us for their sport!
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Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:24 am |
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Satis
Felix Rex
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 6:01 pm Posts: 16661 Location: On a slope
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visas for educational purposes are pretty easy to obtain That's a great thing for developing countries.. get people educated in advanced, first-world countries, then export them back to their countries to help build up the infrastructure and whatnot.
Then, after they get alot of real-world experience, let them permanently immigrate to the first-world country. Actually, I think that's a great idea...give them reason to work hard in their studies, so they can go to the US/Europe to be educated in a good college. Head back to your hole in the wall and learn your job, give back to your community, help build your nation, then once you've done enough to pay back your societal debt to your birth nation, immigrate to a first world country so you can live comfortably and make bank. Sounds like a win-win situation.
_________________ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
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Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:05 am |
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ElevenBravo
King
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:18 pm Posts: 1976 Location: Sexy Town
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| | | | Satis wrote: visas for educational purposes are pretty easy to obtain That's a great thing for developing countries.. get people educated in advanced, first-world countries, then export them back to their countries to help build up the infrastructure and whatnot.
Then, after they get alot of real-world experience, let them permanently immigrate to the first-world country. Actually, I think that's a great idea...give them reason to work hard in their studies, so they can go to the US/Europe to be educated in a good college. Head back to your hole in the wall and learn your job, give back to your community, help build your nation, then once you've done enough to pay back your societal debt to your birth nation, immigrate to a first world country so you can live comfortably and make bank. Sounds like a win-win situation. | | | | |
Question: Who will be paying for these immigrants to get a first rate education? Hopefully not the tax payer.
_________________ Contrary to popular belief, America is not a democracy, it is a Chucktatorship.
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Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:16 am |
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Arathorn
Minor Diety
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 10:23 am Posts: 3956 Location: Amsterdam
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Well, these immigrants pay for themselves. Let them do a postdoctorate for cheap and invent some usefull shit for your country.
_________________ Melchett: As private parts to the gods are we: they play with us for their sport!
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Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:43 am |
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Satis
Felix Rex
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 6:01 pm Posts: 16661 Location: On a slope
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oh, no, I'm not advocating we pay for these foreign exchange students, by any means. Either they pay for themselves, their family pays, or their government pays. I'm more thinking along the lines that the government chooses the top 5% of their high school graduates, for instance, and then pays for them to go to the US/EU for advanced training. It'd be in that government's best interests, since the resultant influx of skilled workers would be a major boon to their country.
_________________ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
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Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:58 am |
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ElevenBravo
King
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:18 pm Posts: 1976 Location: Sexy Town
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Humm, ok so, their governement pays for them or they pay for theirselves? And they get this education visa before they enter the county?
I like the idea better when it was called "Foreign Exchange Student Program"
_________________ Contrary to popular belief, America is not a democracy, it is a Chucktatorship.
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Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:09 pm |
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Satis
Felix Rex
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 6:01 pm Posts: 16661 Location: On a slope
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yea, that's basically what I'm advocating. Foreign exchange student.
What I'm thinking.
1. Foreign government chooses top 5% of students as they graduate from high school.
2. School visas are obtained.
3. The foreign student, foreign government, or some other foreign object pays costs (tuition, flight, living expenses, etc).
while getting educated:
student gets education
foreign country loses cash
US gets influx of cash
after being educated:
student returns to country and gets experience
foreign country gets educated/skilled workers/teachers
US gets nothing
10 years later
student gets a visa (he pays for it) to work in the US, increasing his income significantly
foreign country loses a skilled worker but has 10 years of profits from him
US gains a skilled, experienced worker
_________________ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
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Thu Jul 14, 2005 2:49 pm |
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Arathorn
Minor Diety
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 10:23 am Posts: 3956 Location: Amsterdam
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This is too much to think about for a drunk man, I'll report more when I'm sober.
_________________ Melchett: As private parts to the gods are we: they play with us for their sport!
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Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:51 pm |
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Rinox
Minor Diety
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2003 7:23 am Posts: 14892 Location: behind a good glass of Duvel
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Satis, you're talking college lvl right? I doubt many exchange students could learn anything from the majority of US high schools. And I doubt they'd get into the posh private schools. Then again, it can't be worse than what they're learning in say Ethiopia or Mongolia.
Erh, anyway...problem is that once you've got a degree in a Western country you're not likely to return to the third world all at once. So you'd need to make it impossible for them to find a job after college within the US or something. And even then they could flee somewhere else. I think such a system would always be flawed, but it's -nevertheless- about the best possible solution.
I do have a problem with the effort-based selectioning system (ie students with the highest scores etc.), but I guess it's typically Anglo-Saxon school system. (not a sneer) I never was top of my class in grades anywhere, but I've always been one of the most intelligent (if not most intelligent). Effort-based systems reward people with the best combination work ethic/intellgence, not the most intelligent. I'd have the third-world kids do IQ tests and problem-solving, rather than look at their grades. Everyone that's not a retard can get high grades in high school, if they're willing to apply (to varying degrees).
_________________ "I find a Burger Tank in this place? I'm-a be a one-man cheeseburger apocalypse."
- Coach
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Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:15 am |
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ElevenBravo
King
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:18 pm Posts: 1976 Location: Sexy Town
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OK so youre an employeer. Are you going to hired the guy/gal with the best combination of work ethic/intelligence or just the guy who has the highest intelligence?
_________________ Contrary to popular belief, America is not a democracy, it is a Chucktatorship.
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Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:47 am |
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Rinox
Minor Diety
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2003 7:23 am Posts: 14892 Location: behind a good glass of Duvel
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Good point. But school is still different, you can't get ahead in school or make promotions or anything, you know? School is mandatory (well, it is here anyway) so you're basically in a situation you don't want to be, for many ppl. If you're looking for work you look for something that at least interests you....that doesn't mean everyone likes their work of course, but there's more of an element of choice. Especially for someone with an education (which we've been discussing here), which is already largely chosen through their field of interest.
_________________ "I find a Burger Tank in this place? I'm-a be a one-man cheeseburger apocalypse."
- Coach
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Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:41 am |
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Satis
Felix Rex
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 6:01 pm Posts: 16661 Location: On a slope
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nah, I'm with Ox...I never scored really high in high school (am now in college, though), mainly due to a lack of motivation. Whatever, it doesn't matter.
As for the degree thing, the Visa they'd get would be for education only, and only last for education. Once they get their degree, out of the country. Now, they could potentially get picked up by another country (say somewhere in Europe), but there's nothing you can do about that.
And yes, higher education, not high school. :p
_________________ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
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Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:40 pm |
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ElevenBravo
King
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:18 pm Posts: 1976 Location: Sexy Town
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To change the subject but still within ethics and morality.
For those of you who believe abortion still should be a womens right and is ok.
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/pictures.html
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/pictures_2.html
_________________ Contrary to popular belief, America is not a democracy, it is a Chucktatorship.
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Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:25 pm |
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