My opinion on this matter from just imagining the video is that firstly, the problem of immigration is a real one. By that i mean that if there are no regulations on immigration a country will suffer serious problems, it is inevitable. So therefore, the controls in place at the moment are justified.

Secondly, the guy has not (in my impression) done nothing illegal.

Conclusion:

Its sad that a civilian has had to spend his time imposing this important control rather than border control/ police whatever. However for me the immigrants most probably didnt have a legislatively defined justification for entereing the country.

you should watch the video. I think a big portion of hte debate is because the guy got his jollies off of it.

I think that watching the video will skew my perception on the matter so that an overall judgement on the concept is no longer visible.

I think the best way to judge things is to take the pulp, lay it out flat so that you can clearly see the features of the argument and then make a judgement.

yeah i think ox's point was that, while illegal immigrants are against the law and do need sorting out, that its still wrong to get enjoyment from it. Not that we all didnt laugh but still, it is.

A murderer gets sent down (not that they ever frigging get life now but thats another story); you shouldn't laugh and say ha! hahaha look at that. Sure you can understand the people close to whoever was murdered thinking "serves him right" but you still shouldn't laugh. The judge should not take pleasure in sending him down, because to take pleasure is to be glad the crime occured.

Now as you all know, I'm an atheist. I'm one in the sense that I believe in the good things that are taught by religion, but i dont believe that some guy in the sky said "be nice, dont kill and worship me". Maybe some real guy said it. Who knows. But the point is, so many of these supposed religious people (and lets face it, without going into detail as to what every religion believes, most religions basically are about living in harmony and teaching forgiveness) will not forgive a criminal, or will laugh at someone in misfortune, or use someone in misfortune to gain somehow. Most of these types of people are the hideously over zealous ones.

E.g. watched wife swap a while back. It was this black woman (married to a white guy with 3 mixed race kids) who had this huge house. And she swapped with a lesbian. The problem was, this black woman was a "Conservative religious" person (i think those were her words), and while her family got on ok with the lesbian, she constantly harrassed and degraded the lesbian she had to live with. When they joined together at the table at the end, she called the lesbian who'd been with her family "a sexual predator" simply because of her sexual preferences. The family that had been getting on with her turned against her because their mother was back (well the husband did, dont know what the kids said/did).

Thing is, although I know the bible is against being gay, I'm pretty sure one of the things that is a very common teaching is that you should forgive everyone. "Forgive those who trespass against us". Not to mention that of course, 40 years ago, she'd have been raped and lynched just for looking at a white guy, let alone marrying one and having 3 kids. And yet she still felt she could be prejudiced and could quite happily make these two women feel utterly degraded and miserable.

People wonder why I despair of humanity. I remember years ago telling my parents that humans need to die out and let some other species have a go at running the planet; maybe they'd do it better. They never really understood why I felt like that, but surely with all these bombings and prejudices, more and more people must feel similar. Of course, having grown up since then, I realise that the problem is, if another species was to grow to be the top of the food chain in the same way we are, it would also end up as power hungry and selfish as we are.

Pev kinda summed it up, but since I'm done with that part of the discussion I can't be bothered explaining a bit further. Oh btw Pev, a murderer is in my view still something different than an illegal immigrant, but bleh.


Other fun points: its highly debatable (and very unlikely, given historic evdicence) that the Bible condemns homosexuality; ie a lot of stuff has been apocryphically scrapped/added to fit the Church's business over the ages. Jesus' homosexuality is one of those highly debated points. You don't even need to do extensive Bible study to find the fact that Jesus lived together with twelve men rather strange.

Anyhoo...@ the black woman condemning: you'll often see that minority/previously oppressed social groups will at their turn oppress socially weaker ones. I guess it's human nature. For example in the (largely mysogenic) tradition of the blues and rap.

And I don't want humanity to be wiped out, in a way it's all a joyride. I never cease to be amazed at what humanity can achieve (or the horrible things they can do, unfortunately) by sheer willpower/intelligence/trial and error. The future might be dark, but it sure as hell is exciting!

apparently christians aren't allowed to wear things made of two types of material... there go our polyester/cotton mixes

Heh...so christian girls can only wear cotton bags with ropes? Coolness.

#1 Nice try trying to change the subject.
#2 Nice try trying to turn this on a discussion about jesus being a homo and a sorry attempt to make christians look bad
#3 Dont run away from the thread jsut because Im right.


First off, lets take christianity out of the equation because it has no revalence in this situation.

Second, answer this question

If a man gets caught on tape, with witness stealing a tv. Is he

a. kinda of guilty
b. sort of guilty
c. guilty
d. innocent

?

And this reasoning has everything to do with the original reason why we started this post. So no backing out now Rinox.

i dont think ox is saying there are degrees of guilt. I think what he's saying is that you have murder (i.e. the worst crime) and then things like illegal immigration (still a crime but not as bad as murder). I.e. he's saying criminals such as murders, arsenists and rapists are the worst kind of criminal, because they deliberately set out to hurt people. Driving without a license or immigrants are lesser criminals, because while still breaking the law, they dont directly hurt people or intend to. They still do of course, losing your property or not having enough jobs for your family do of course hurt you, but its not like they think "i know, i'll go live in england today and watch a few people get put on benefit coz i stole their job" whereas a murderer DOES think "i'll go kill this person"

In other words, solving crimes like murders are much more important than getting that parking ticket or rounding up some random person. When you dont have an important crime, sure, go ahead and get all those speeders, or round up people that shouldn't be there. But if you have murders, burglaries or even bombings to investigate, dont waste time on the less important (and usually easier to solve) crimes.

So man on tape stealing tv is guilty, yes, but he's not a class A criminal. It's just... criminal.

Ok so pevil says that the guy stealing the tv is a criminal.
Im sure Rinox wont answer because hes scared.

So you have this criminal stealing a tv. Lets say hes running away with his TV. You stop and say "Hey man, need a lift?". He gets in, then you bring him to the police station. Is that wrong?

he didnt say it was wrong. he said to take amusement in it is wrong. he also admitted to finding it amusing himself.

So its wrong to take amusement in a criminal to be brought to justice?

lol @ me not replying cos I'm scared. Yeah, internet discussions really spook me.

I don't think it's wrong to be amused about a blatant thief being arrested, even though there are limits to that too, of course. But for the last time: being an illegal immigrant isn't the same thing as purposely stealing, raping, hurting or killing. There is no intent on damaging others, which isn't to say that it's legal and alright.

I'm confused at your logic sometimes; if it's about abortion etc. you think the law is fucked, if it's about illegal immigrants you say that it's breaking the law and it should be obeyed at all time. Either you let your christian views apply in both situations, or none. But not sometimes for this and sometimes for that. That's what I've been saying for the entire thread.

So you dont agree that a "illegal" immigrant is a criminal? now Pevil says he is a criminal. Is a blatant thief a criminal?


And I have no idea what your talking about in your last paragraph.

And being an illegal does hurt people. It hurts America. Let me explain why.

Lets say this guy really did want a deck built in his back yard. He could have really paid these illegals to build it dirt cheap instead of hiring a "legal" carpenter to do it. The carpenter who pays taxes. Compare to the illegal who doesnt. And a good portion of the illegals money goes back to mexico to feed his family. Its doesnt stay in the US. SO yes the illegals are hurt americans by hurting their jobs.

Would it hurt you if a illegal immigrant took your job?

The jobs someone like me would do are pretty much out of reach for an illegal immigrant. Not the current one of course, but that's just for making tax-free student wages as long as I can. For the record, I work together with two ppl (Ugandese and Liberian) who came to Belgium as illegal immigrants, worked their way into legality (if not always through very legal means, mock marriages etc.) and work very hard in a job that is way beneath them in terms of education in their home countries. Their degrees aren't considered valid here. They made their lives here in a totally different culture (from the poorest to the most prosperous region of the world), made friends, married (for real, later on), had kids, bought homes. All legally. So you can see, there is no black/white, only grey. Technically speaking they shouldn't have been here in the first place, but they are and deserve it, in a way. I admire them for their courage and their upbeat personality, knowing full well that their lives have been anything but a carnival ride.

Anyhoo, in my previous point I explicitely mentioned 'intent' as a part of the deal. Yes, illegal immigrants take low-paid jobs scamming the IRS, but they don't come to a country with the intention of hurting the economy, you or anything. That's where they're different from a common thief or murderer. Don't you think most of them would prefer to be legally there, working legally for a better pay than those crappy low-wage jobs?

Man, how long is this discussion going to take...point is: illegal immigrants = not ok, but they're not villains. If you want to call them criminals, then fine, it's technically speaking correct. But when I think of a criminal I think of real crime, not stuff like this. It's a delicate matter and it should be treated as such, not by dividing things up in 'absolutely wrong' and 'absolutely right'. Because in that case almost every one of us would be a 'criminal'. Can you honestly say you never broke the law? course not.