IMO, both sides have their heads crammed up their asses. What I find to be ironic, is that most of the right wing that is so bigoted is also strongly christian. I guess all that "love thy neighbor" stuff only applies when you want it to.

hehe...don't forget the "turn the other cheeck" stuff. It's funny how ppl can interpret anything in every way they like, just visit a facist/communist forum. Man, the bull they spout is golden. Like the incident with the Italian journalist: far left yells that the Americans started firing the truck on purpose, and far right believes that the accident is a left ploy to discredit them. lolol. (the journalist worked of a leftist newspaper)

As far as putting ppl in jail for shooting trespassers...depends on the situation, tricky stuff. There's a difference between shooting an armed criminal threatening your family, and shooting an unarmed person that's running away in the back, obviously. Bleh, thin line. Over here it's considered to a crime unless it's self-defense. The 'king of my castle thing' doesn't really apply here, prolly to do with the fact that there's less property (high population density) and the fact that trespassers are less likely to be armed. (less guns)

yea, you can still technically get in trouble for shooting someone in Texas, even if they are on your property. You basically have to prove fear for your life, though there are laws on the books that technically allow you to blast someone if not doing so would allow them to steal a large sum from you, or something like that. There was an incident a while back in which someone stole (or tried to steal) another person's truck in Dallas. The crook was driving away when the owner shot him with a rifle, killing him I believe. He ended up getting away with it due to the latter law I was referring to, despite no imminent danger or whatnot.

Personally, if I catch some prick trying to steal my car, I would very much like to shoot him, or at least beat him into a bloody mess. I bust my ass working for my money...spent a nice chunk on my car. For some low-life loser to try to deprive me of that (and, by the way, deprive me of the means to get to work to make more money to buy another car) is an incredible insult and deserving of at very least a great deal of pain. But that's the way of the United States. Noone cares about anyone but themselves any more....people will do absolutely anything to get ahead, no matter who they have to screw over as a result.

*warning, philosophical implications*

Let us make the assumption that it is the current direction of humanity to shun their fellows in exchange for furthering their own goals. IE, someone who will fuck over everyone he knows to try and get a raise/promotion at work, to people that disregard all traffic rules in order to speed up their own passage. So, basically, our society is slowly and inexorably moving to everyone fending for themselves and fuck everyone else.

One of the definitions of society is:

A group of humans broadly distinguished from other groups by mutual interests, participation in characteristic relationships, shared institutions, and a common culture.

The common culture ground is already moot in the US. We are a conglomeration of many different cultures, each of which gravitates toward itself and seems to distance itself from other cultures. 'Participation in characertistic relationships' is unture for the same reason as the last...there is nothing characteristic about a country with such a diverse range of ethnic, religious and social groups. Mutual interests is also untrue. 'Shared institutions', if that means shared local/state/federal government and services, then yes, but if it's referring to cultural institutions, then that fails the test as well.

Social groups still exist, of course. Counter-cultures are still an area of strong social grouping, and there are tons of smaller, splinter cultures out there. However, overall it appears that the 'American society' no longer exists. Nor does the 'Texas society' or the 'Dallas society' or continually more granular. In my view, the only true social structure remaining to any degree are tiny splinter cultures, consisting of small groups of similar people.

So...is society degenerating? I certainly think it is, and many other do as well (family values campaign?). Are we in a societal collapse? Is our society in the process of callapsing into a dark age? And what would a dark age be like where the powers have nuclear weapons?

I see the desintegration of society too, espescially in politics. Back in the days, people voted for parties, now for leaders, making way for a political era full of populists. Not only in new parties like that of the late Pim Fortuyn, but also in established old parties like the Dutch Labour party (PvdA), whose leader is a horrible populist.
The current trend in politics over here is towards absolute democracy with people voting for every fart, leading towards votes that will be completely decided by the largest part of the population that finds it usefull for itself.

But I don't seen any dark age coming unless there would be a massive economic crash in the western world.

Wow, serious philosophical/sociological ponderings. Good stuff...I'll prolly add my glorious opinion tomorrow, if at all.

K, here we go...


I don't believe society is degenerating per se, more like changing. Changing from a tradition that saw people identifying themselves as a group into one that has more focus on the individual. Which,I believe, is a good thing given the right context and reasons. Take me, for example: I would say that I'm highly indivualist in my personal life (barring social views here), but I don't go around screwing ppl over for petty reasons. I'm pretty sure that applies to you too. If it involves my life or irreversable long-term stuff then yes, I will screw ppl over. But not for the sake of my face on the cover of a book/on tv, or for tons more cash than I need to get by and so on. I've said it before somewhere on the site; it's ideologies that mess up ppl, beit political, religious or concerning work.

A healthy introspective way of life with a disregard for the banal or extreme is in no way a decline of society. But, as you will have tought by now, the problem is: most ppl aren't as smart/educated as you and I (arrogance rox0rs), which leaves a lot of free play for stuff like that. The problem is that this will take aaaaaages to root out, with the establishment being notoriously ideological. (they're politicians for a reason, of course) We discussed the irony of libertarianism or a likewise state of mind changing that, iirc. And, as usual: I don't know the answer to the question of how to change the general state of mind.

One of the most important things to note is that the notion of 'freedom' in any society is, at large, delusional. You can't have total freedom for anyone, it just doesn't work. I'm not advocating a regime here, haha, but a change in attitude. You're not doing anyone harm with doing whatever the fuck you like at home (barring psychological or physical torture, hehe), it's only when you try to rally mobs of idiots op and down the street that the shit hits the fan. 'Freedom' is all very well, but I'll be damned of a bunch of Neo-nazi's or Trotskists come yelling their slogans at my door. Or any other group for that matter. Mm, now this sounds like i'm against striking too, lol. Different story, not for this post.

Which comes back to what i said about responsible individuals, and to what you said about society becoming more small splinter groups than a homogenous mass: exactly; and I think it's a good thing. And the state is there to monitor if one of these groups gets violent. Bleh.

Maybe our pov is different because of most of us Europeans here (apart from the Brits, hehehe) are in 1337 social security systems, unlike you and 11b& Pig. Broadly drawn the differences are:

US: Better pay if you work, because of (sometimes much) lower taxes. Also work more than average European, i.e. less holidays.
Belgium, W. Europe at large: pay a lot of taxes, but more time off. Great medical care and wellfare.

As you know those systems are built on different mindsets, but it also gives an extra dimension to what you said about ppl screwing over ppl at work etc. Having a good job and making money is, in view of the systems, much more important in the US than over here...you can easily lead a decent (if somewhat marginal ) live on wellfare here. I'll not go into the implications of that, I think it's obvious that that wellfare has its drawbacks too.

But the higher 'pressure' to make money combined with less free time logically makes for a less laidback existence overall, I would say. So maybe you notice the decline (or whatever you want to call it) of society more than us here. The fact that half of the US is packing heat doesn't help the cause when it comes to civil unrest. lol.

Erh; man, this rant went nowhere. I hope anyone had fun reading it, I had fun typing the obvious. It certainly wasn't a deep social tract. And maybe I'm too optimistic, but bleh, ppl have been heralding the doom of our culture every 50 years, so what. Now ppl have huge bombs, true, but what the heck...if we all die tomorrow so be it, nothing you can do. Sucks slightly but hey. Some ppl will probably survive and start over again anyway. Or else the cockroaches will rule the world, wooohoo!


One question btw



Do you think that the ridiculously overdone nationalism (I would have used other adjectives but it's hard to not point this it )in the US stems from this, partly? An attempt to 'mold' all these cultures into one thing, 'Americans'? Just wondering as to other ppl's views.

To answer your question:

The 'rediculously overdone nationalism' is less of a US reality than most people in other countries think. It's mainly a very vocal minority. Granted, most people do have some level of nationalism, but not to the insane levels that most people appear to believe. Most people are fairly moderate. I think this is just another example of the media trying to shape people's views of the world for sensationalist reasons.

As for the molding of cultures, I don't see much of a drive toward that. In fact, I see quite the opposite. 'Diversity' and 'cultural identity' or whatever the hell you want to call is is the agenda now. It's 'wonderful' how there's an 'African American Heritage Month' or whatever the fuck...like a day for native Americans, like a week for hispanics...none at all for whites/caucasians, of course. It's the liberal left having their way with us. So no, there is no drive to mash cultures here, quite the opposite.

As far as your opinion, you may be right. I spent most of my life growing up overseas...one of the things that struck me about the US every time I came to visit or live here for a few years is the level of competition and aggression here. Perhaps I've lived here too long now and am losing my objectivity. Still , the rest of the world appears to be heading down the same path...I know over several years that Germany (where I lived for awhile) became more competitive, more violent and more high-strung, though not like the US.

Hehehe...don't forget that my limit to calling nationalism 'ridiculously overdone' is very low. Nationalism should only be practical or in sports, otherwise its plain dangerous and belongs to the ideologies etc. that I mentioned that should be avoided. It's like religion: a little bit is ok (being a good samaritan and whatever), but the trouble is in watching the excesses. (sp?) Bleh. I'd rather have none of it than dealing with the crap it potentially causes.

@ celebrating ethnic days...if it were up to me, no one would get celebrated, hehe. Black, yellow, brown, white or purple. The things is, if there weren't any, nobody would care about it. You wouldn't be fussed about having a white-American celebration if there weren't any for other ethnicities, so we'd just have to cancel the whole fucking bunch. Keep things simple, is what i say. It's like the freaking Black/Latin music awards...what the feck is that for? Self-invoked segregation? The irony is that, by setting up such awards, black and Latin ppl themselves set up solid legal ground for organizing an 'Arian Music Awards' ceremony. I'm surprised the KKK hasn't tried to set one up yet. Maybe when they get to use radios, in a century or two.


@ highly-strung etc.

It's true that we're gradually moving more towards a more American, competitive way of doing business over here. Mostly under the influence of liberal politicians (our liberals, not yours ), I reckon. While I don't completely disapprove of this (you always have to watch out that you don't become too complacent in a system with excellent social security etc.), I think the EU should choose a European course (whatever the fuck that exactly is) over copying the American one. If the EU can make stuff work it's a formidable -economic- force. Iirc the whole of the economies of the current EU is already stronger than that of the US, cfr. the strong Euro. So if they can make things more efficient; the long-term goal of the EU, this should become even more the case. But bleh, there's still a long way to go for optimal cooperation in the EU, if it will ever come to that. But I'm a Euro-optimist, so you can disagree. The EU is unique in that sense that it was forged as an alliance of 'losers', after half a century of shitty wars between the exact countries that are now at its heart. I can only hope that things will prosper further. (man, I'm being sentimental, haha)

On the whole the problem today is that Europe is too much the Fox, and the US too much the Lion, in Machiavellan terms. Ooh, that sounded so fancy. peace out.

It's ironic to see that the two coutries that used to fuck each other before the EU was conceived (France and Germany), now always work together to fuck the rest.
It's odd that nobody tries to set the three big ones (Germany, France and the UK) up against each other, wich should be very possible.

To sum it up, the EU sucks.

lol, no offense but saying that the EU sucks is hardly a convincing argument man. Yes, there are problems with the big ones not playing by the rules while the rest should (economically), but that's not much of a reason to say that the EU or the European project sucks a priori. The EU is anything but perfect, with the addition of Eastern European countries and Turkey eg, which makes it more of a trade union than anything else atm. But it still is a useful project. Just cos some things are suckage doesn't mean it's all bad. The US has made some serious mistakes in terms of foreign affairs in the last few years, but we're not cutting off our ties with them either for that...we have to see things through, and it works the same for the EU imho.

Alright, the idea of the EU is great, but in practice it sucks.
Espescially when Turkey joins, I'm not waiting for another million of foreigners come and live here.

EU = Great idea.

The bad thing is the bureaucrats pushing it through when the people dont want it. Theyre in such a rush but they dont realise these things take time.

If they take it slowly, they cant go wrong. If they rush it they risk enraging the people and cause it collapse.