Did someone say pyramid???

Don't tempt me again.

lol..this thread was fun to follow. Especially all the pyramid schemes. By and large Maslow brings good points, but (apart from such other deficiencies) the altruistic/self-actualization/spiritual thing is kinda lame. Bleh, I'm not gonna type my whole view on this because it's a)too long and would require too many nuances and b)pretty pointless to spill what I believe to be life's mysteries on the internet. That and the fact that I can't honestly say I have good theories about it, but that might be a theory in itself. Suffice to say that I believe that Maslow's scheme is based on idealistic principles that are, in my view, outdated. I don't believe in altruism either, and Ghandi and the Dalaï Lamah pretty generally suck.

On insanity: it's arbitrary, as in the power of numbers. Who is to say that if I see a pink elephant passing by and other ppl don't, that I am insane? Fundamentally nothing...but the power of numbers. You can quite effectively drive someone crazy by just convincing them a group of 5 ppl sees this or that, and he/she doesn't. It's good stuff. I would argue that the moment you can't function properly in general social contact, by being incoherent or completely oblivious to others, is 'insanity'. Both because of the implications that brings and the power of numbers I mentioned. Bleeeeh.

Reality is what it is, and most-if not all-concept that are superimposed to it are (sometimes pretentious) attempts to convince oneself of a greater importance than it truly is.


"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
-- Philip K. Dick

I think yall have trouble accepting Maslow pyramid because it puts sprituality at the top and things of the physical at the bottom. Just my observation.

Not really...it's not so much the order in which he ranks them I'm concerned with, but rather the presence of spirituality in the pyramid An Sich. (or "self-actualization", if you will)

I generally accept Maslows HON. Especially the particular diagram with Self-Actualisation at the top (but no pointy bit). Have a look if you dont know what i mean, its on page 2.

self-actualization is, imo, a good thing and does belong at the top of the pyramid. 'spirituality' doesn't belong at all. Self-realization is the act of discovering and accepting who you truly are and becoming all you can be... spirituality has nothing to do with anything, imo. Besides, I like Nietzsche's view on self-actualization. :p

Yeh, spirituality blows goats.

It's nice, but it's still abstract and hence pretty useless, but I'm prolly just pointing out the obvious. Still, even Maslow himself was very vague as to what it exactly held. Basically it could just mean about anything.


Sorry...i'm so uninspired and drunk, this post sucks. But, regardless of my deleting powers, I will let it here as a testament to suckness.

Based on your responses, my observation reigns true. The reason spirituality is at the top is because is goes beyond ones self. Beyond the "me". Self-acutalization is all about "me", how can I better myself, what can I do to inmprove myself. BUT spirtuality goes beyond the me, namly what can I do for "insert higher being or engery". It says "How can I give myself to something or someone else"

I'd just like to elaborate on one of Ox's earlier posts, with something that is true - Insanity really is in the eye of the beholder.

Say one person see's this pink elephant, people will call him insane.
He will think they are insane because they can't see it.

What if he's seeing the truth... *du-duh-duuuuuh*

With all do respect, but afaik it's yet to be proven that there is anything like a 'higher being or energy'. And no, Anselm's ontological proof for the existance of God doesn't count.

As for the 'me' vs. 'the whole'/'others'/'group' thing...I would argue that individualization is a sign of progress rather than a 'lower' position. Just take a look at most cultures: the less developed a culture (yes, I'm aware that this is a very unnuanced statement but let it be for now), the more they act like a group...it is arguably in more advanced cultures that individualism appears. I personally believe that accepting the world (and all that you can't change) and your place in it as an individual is one of the most 'exalted' things one can do. Groups give ppl certainty about parts of their lives/the world that they cannot give themselves; a confirmation that they are 'doing the right thing'. This is why ideologies such as Nazism can grow to excessive size; because everyone feels that what they do is the just (and only!) thing to do. Someone who's utterly convinced they're doing the right thing is per definition dangerous. (road to hell is paved with good intentions and all that) A healthy doubt of one's own intentions and beliefs is the only way to go. This stands, for me, apart from any self-actualizing or spiritual beliefs. What is setting the world on fire over and over again is morons who are firmly convinced of their right...ideologists, fundamentalists, partisans.


I know that all this is-in a way-a belief too, but it's a belief based on the simple statement: I don't know. Whereas most if not all other beliefs hold one thing in common: a certainty of their cause; for reasons they will make up if there aren't any. In the end, no one's got your back except you, and nothing is gonna save you from a comet hitting you in the groin. Or that you're actually dead when you die. Accepting that is hard, but it pays off. I still haven't mastered it and prolly never will, but every day it gets better.