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Oblivion 
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Minor Diety
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nice ox

Launch week in the uk, charts looked like this:
1. Obliv PC
2. Obliv CE PC
3. Obliv 360
4. Obliv CE 360
5. Godfather

If you mixed all formats together and just went by titles it was
1. Godfather (ps2, pc, xbox)
2. Obliv (360, pc)

Which is pretty impressive since ps2 is the biggest format. That was according to the official games retailers magazine that we get at work. Go obliv!

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Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:35 pm
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Felix Rex
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I'm not surprised, but I'm sure Bethesda is very happy. They'll probably give it 6 months to a year before rolling out the expansion packs. :P

At 11b -> resting an hour is alot faster if I'm low on health. My wisdom and int are both in the 60s now, I believe, which lets me heal myself pretty quickly. I use a major heal instead of that crappy one you get for free.

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Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:45 pm
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New magazine today:

All Formats:
Oblivion came seventh

360:
Second to tombraider.

PC:
Still top of the board!

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Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:05 am
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Awesome! I'm not the most hard-stanced person around when it comes to piracy, but for a game like Oblivion I'm always willing to fork out cash and I feel like my friends who don't are bastards who don't want to support one of the few somewhat independent original/ambitious developers around.

I mean, they're not part of EA or MS...wow! :o :roll: Btw, already looking forward to an expansion...I think they're gonna be able to make something really sweet now they've come to know their own engine and tools so well. I expect the same from Valve in Aftermath -pardon, Episode I.

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Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:23 am
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Ive started to make a list of the good and bad things about Oblivion for my review.

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Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:03 am
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I found a post on the elder scrolls forum that adresses some issues in Oblivion. Some of his points I (strongly) agree with, others are whiney. Don't get me wrong, I loooove Oblivion and I still dig Elder Scrolls and Bethesda, but the simplifying the game world ever since Daggerfall is kinda alarming. If you didn't play Daggerfall you'll get a taste if what is was like by reading this, too. ;) Other things include the rather surreal way your opponents level with you (highwaymen in daedric armor and stuff), omitting of levitation and -connected with the loot and enemy leveling- the lack of possibility to be a real explorer stumbling onto something very powerful. (because you can't find those items like that unless you're at a certain level and by then they're abundant)

Anyway....it's a LOOOOONG read so grab a drink and relax. It's worth it!

Quote:
QUOTE(Lode Runner @ Apr 5 2006, 11:08 PM)

Well, people seemed to like my previous thread, so here's the sequel.

First off, I want to address all of you pissed off TES fans out there... calm down. Take a deep breath. All is not lost... there are still many, many TES elements in Oblivion. It still has the most potential out of any RPG currently on the market. As I recall, there were just as many complaints when Morrowind came out, people comparing it to Daggerfall and saying it sucked... a few years, a few patches, two expansions and several billion mods later, now people are saying Morrowind was the best RPG of all time and The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion is the greatest game in the history of the universe.. If you truly believe that there is no hope, if you will refuse to play the game, refuse to install the patches, refuse to play around with the mods, and refuse to buy the expansions, then there's really no point in you being here. If you think TES is completely dead, then pause for a moment of respectful silence and move on with your life. The rest of us still have some hope that Oblivion will turn into a game just as great as (hopefully even greater than) its predecessors.

Of course, some of us are perfectly satisfied with the game. Many consider it nigh perfect. That's great; why don't you go off and keep playing it and please stop telling us we're not playing it right. Yes, it's a fun little game as it is, but a lot of us think it could be a hell of a lot more fun. Bethesda has made significant efforts to address their fans' concerns in the past, and even if they don't the modders may be able to, so I think it's important that we voice our concerns now in a clear and reasonable fashion.

It's possible to love this game and still hate it for all its flaws and omissions. I had a very similar love/hate relationship with Morrowind and Daggerfall.

Anyway, here is my very biased pro/con list of Oblivion. Feel free to mention anything major I've forgotten, but I'm trying to stick to the larger issues here. I am not currently taking into consideration console commands and mods (partially because I haven't had time to play with them much.)

What we have gained over Morrowind and Daggerfall:

-Decent Combat. Hot damn, fights are actually fun and strategic now! Horrible NPC pathfinding and AI made combat in Daggerfall kinda pathetic, and the situation was only somewhat improved in Morrowind. Yes, combat is harder now... because "run around until enemy gets is stuck on something" is no longer a valid strategy! I think that mana recharges a bit too fast, but on the whole mana recharge rates makes the game more fun and balanced for mages. I realize that all this may turn off people who absolutely hate all action games, but I think for the vast majority of us the horrible enemy AI was a much bigger turnoff.

-Stealth. We're not at the level of Thief: A Dark Project yet, but we're much closer and I have hope that a good mod or expansion will eventually make it happen.

-NPC schedules and AI. 24 hour schedules just makes the world much more interesting, much more real. RAI might not be all it was hyped to be, but the NPCs are definitely a hell of a lot smarter, and there are at least a few tidbits of interesting/amusing emergent gameplay that arise out of RAI.

-100% spoken dialog. Yeah, you don't have as many dialog options as you did in Morrowind, but 99.99% of the options in Morrowind were canned responses that didn't vary at all from NPC to NPC. I don't think a careful observer can honestly say that the NPCs in Oblivion are less deep. And if you're too impatient to wait for them to finish talking (I often am), turn on the subtitles. Some of the voice acting is a little painful, but most of it is alright and actually adds to the game.

-Physics. Right now it's just neat immersive eye candy, but it's just a matter of time before someone makes a telekinesis mod so that it can be used as a weapon similar to the gravity gun from Half Life 2 (Throw rocks at your enemies, throw chairs at your enemies, throw enemies at your enemies, and they'll all do damage based on size and weight.)

-Graphics. Hey, it has to be said. Graphics do not solely determine immersion, but they certainly help. Oblivion is positively gorgeous, and if you have the patience, the character face generator is awesome. I'm playing with a nord fighter right now who looks almost exactly like my girlfriend (my girlfriend is impatient that I haven't made her a vampire yet.)

-Neat Dungeons. I haven't done much dungeon exploration yet, but I just visited one that had a bunch of neat traps--swinging blades, a (very fast) moving wall of spikes, turrets that fire magical bolts at you...

-No Cliff Racers. 'Nuff said.

What we have lost since Morrowind:

-Levitation. This is supposed to be an epic, immersive world, and I want to be able to soar over all of creation. Being able to fly is like the single simplest wonderous thing you can include. And you freaking ditched it because of (apparently) bad game design. Even if the city cell crap was IMPOSSIBLE to work around, you could have concocted some halfway reasonable story like the cities are enchanted with anti-levitation spells in order to hinder would-be thieves, smugglers, and hit-and-run raiders. That might seem a little cheesy, but it's a hell of a lot better than pretending one of the most popular TES spells has never existed.

-Thievery. While stealth has received a major boost, suddenly there's nothing interesting to steal anymore. The entire POINT of thievery is being able to gain access to stuff that you couldn't possibly afford otherwise. As it stands now, due to the draconian treasure leveling, thievery has been rendered boring and rather useless. By the time you can steal decent stuff, a warrior character could go out and get the same exact stuff by simply killing things. Thieves should by definition have much better equipment than non-thieves (at a cost of weaker combat skills.) On top of this, there are no rare items to proudly display in your home--at high levels, daedric becomes laughably common. Also, apparently (though I can't confirm this) you can only fence items through the Thieve's Guild. I agree with reasonable restrictions and penalities for trying to sell stolen items, but this seems a little excessive. I shouldn't be forced to join the Thieve's Guild just to be a profitable thief.

Also, we mustn't forget that many of the most interesting targets are hidden behind the FAR TOO NUMEROUS "must have a key" doors.

-Minor Skill Slots. Our characters are less unique now because of the skill merges and the reduction in skill slots. Given the history of the TES, I don't see how you can spin this as being a good thing. Say you don't want to mess with figuring out all those skills in Morrowind... fine, pick a pregenerated class! There are plenty to choose from, and most RPGs don't even offer the custom class option at all. I think the rest of us appreciate the ability to fine-tune our characters. 7 skills, a race, and a birthsign isn't much customization at all. I've heard it said jokingly that in TES V the options will be "Fighter, Mage, Thief--pick two." The sad part is we're really not *too* far away from that right now.

-Guilds. Morrowind's temple is understandably absent, but I expected the return of the gods' cults from Daggerfall... as it turns out not even the all-in-one "imperial cult" makes an appearance. The option to join the imperial legion is gone too... wtf? These guilds would actually make a lot more sense in Cyrodiil than they did in Morrowind. Most people put the "real" guild count at 4 or 5, which is considerably less than Morrowind.

-Size. Not in land area, but in content. I don't have any hard numbers, but the general consensus is there are fewer cities, fewer architecture styles, and fewer NPCs, and in playing the game I do get the feeling that the world is significantly smaller than Morrowind's.

-Not being a pansy. I WANT TO BE ABLE TO SLEEP ON THE GROUND. Add whatever penalties you want (e.g. your fatigue recharges much slower after you wake up from sleeping on the cold hard ground), but it was a rather large break in realism for them to suddenly force us to find an inn if we want to sleep.

-Killable NPCs. I want to be able to kill anything, period. Sometimes a certain NPC pisses me off; sometimes I just want to slaughter everything living within a 10 mile radius. The system they had in Morrowind was just fine--if you want to ignore the warnings and start killing the main quest NPCs, that should be your choice.

And don't hand me that "it's because of RAI" crap. They already have the ability to toggle the killable/unkillable flag dynamically (as I found out when I tried to kill a certain NPC too early--he kept going unconscious instead!) They can make this NPC unkillable UNLESS the PC is the one doing the attacking, thus preventing them being killed by another NPC.

-Realism and scarcity, aka no draconian leveling. I think that a certain amount of leveling is desireable (to prevent the "boo hoo I'm level 50 and now nothing is hard anymore" syndrome), but to make every single enemy and every single treasure hoard stay in exact syncronization with the PC destroys much of the realism, immersion, and sense of accomplishment in the game. I think this topic has been done to death, but it's worth mentioning. Making a few key bosses (and perhaps a few special dungeons) in the game level is one thing; making it so that a level 1 character can beat the Arena, that all bandits wear full daedric at high level, that you can't get many high quality items AT ALL until high level (even if you're a [censored] thief), etc. is ridiculous. You have your difficulty slider, and I'm sure there will be difficulty mods--why do you have to DESTROY the game for thieves and collectors and everyone who enjoys realism and the sensation of growing more powerful?

What we've lost since Daggerfall:

-The Greatest Character Generator of All Time. Seriously. The only other game that even came remotely close was Fallout. If you wanted a custom class in Daggerfall, it went something like this (I'm doing this all by memory, so I've probably forgotten a few things):

3 Primary Skills

3 Major Skills

10 Minor Skills

There were many more skills than there are in Oblivion... more than there were in Morrowind, even. Notable omissions in TES 4 and 5 are Critical Strike, Disguise (not fully implemented), different languages (not fully implemented), Medical, Etiquette, Streetwise, and Climb (I will discuss this one in detail later on.) Also, many skills were split up, e.g. Sneak and Backstab. With the increased skill slots, this was a good thing--it allowed you to differentiate a cat burglar character from an assassin.

up to 7 special advantages including Weapon Expertise, Favored Enemies (Animals, Undead, Daedra, Humanoids), Health Regeneration (general, in dark, in light, in water), Spell Absorption (general, in dark, in light, in water), Resistence or Immunity to Paralysis/Poison/Disease/Fire/Ice/Shock/Magica, Increased Mana, Acute Hearing, Adrenaline Rush, Rapid Healing (in general, in light, in dark. This is different from Regeneration), and Athleticism

up to 7 special disadvantages including Forbidden Weapon, Forbidden Material (e.g. daedric or iron), Forbidden Armor (light/medium/heavy), Forbidden Shield (buckler/round/kite/tower), Weakness or Critical Weakness to Paralysis/Poison/Disease/Fire/Ice/Shock/Magica, and Inability to Regenerate Magic by sleeping (in general, in light, in dark), Damage from Sunlight, Damage from Holy Places, and Phobias (Humanoid, Undead, Animal, Daedra.)

(I'm sure I'm forgetting some advantages and disadvantages; this is just off the top of my head.)

Your advantages and disadvantages affected a sliding meter on the righthand side of the screen. The scale ranged from 0.3x to 3x. In the middle was "normal" which was where the pointer started out. At 0.3x you leveled up three times quicker than normal; at 3x you leveled up three times slower than normal. Adding advantages pushed the pointer towards 3x, while adding disadvantages pushed it towards 0.3x. You could also gain 1-30 hit points per level, and adjusting this value would move the pointer up or down accordingly.

You could also edit your statistics. Yes, you still had racial bonuses, but you're not just *any* Breton, you're a hero, you're unique! Your attributes had to add up to an average number, though--for example I remember one character I had with an 80 Intelligence and a 10 Personality. [censored] mage that everyone hated...

Racial bonuses were not skill based. For example, Redguards got level/3 added to their melee damage and Bosmer got level/3 added to their ranged damage. This made the differences between some of races a little more pronounced, especially at high levels. On the other hand, some of the races merely had some of the above mentioned special advantages by default.

You could edit your starting reputation with the Merchants, Upper Class, Lower Class, and Underworld factions (Don't think that the faction system in Daggerfall was that simple--there were hundreds of sub-factions below these.) Every positive reputation point had to be balanced by a negative reputation point.

After you were done choosing your race and class (yes, they still had the pregenerated classes e.g. Warrior, Thief, Sorcerer, Bard) you answered a few questions regarding your life history. E.g., You saved the Emporor's Son--what reward did you accept? What was your childhood nickname? What kind of person (or creature) do you get along with? What god or goddess do you favor? What was your favorite school of magic?

These questions could affect your reputation with various factions, your skills, your starting spells, your starting equipment, etc. They also made your character feel a little more real, a little more personal. Had they used this system in MW or OB, they could have made it have a more direct impact on gameplay--e.g., a few people recognize you and call you by your old nickname, whether or not you chose to save the Emporor's son could drastically affect things, etc.

I am very very very disappointed that Bethesda has decided to do away with all of this in favor of... *the birthsign*. That's hardly an acceptable sustitute, isn't it? In Daggerfall I came out of the character generation screens with detailed and rich character history, unique (non-average) attributes, a good or gad reputation with different factions, and a dozen special heroic powers and weaknesses. In Morrowind and Oblivion, I'm just some random average guy with a neutral reputation born under a certain sign which bestows one or two unique powers. Bleh.

I must stress that you did not HAVE to play a highly unique character in Daggerfall if you didn't want to--you could keep your stats and starting reputation average and not choose any special advantages or disadvantages, or you could just choose a premade class, but you weren't FORCED to play such a vanilla character (as you are in Oblivion and Morrowind.)

Yes, I suppose I could whip out the CS and make my character unique but there are several objections to this:

1. I've never used the construction set and I don't want to be forced to learn how to use it just to have a unique character.

2. Xbox owners do not have this option.

3. In the PATCHED version of Daggerfall, the custom class generator was reasonably balanced--every advantage came at a price. With the CS, I'd be forced to sit down and decide on my own disadvantages, which may or may not be balanced.

4. Daggerfall's way feels less like cheating, less artifical. It's more immersive. I can't be the only gamer who doesn't like using the console or the CS... I don't want to be forced to leave the game world unnecessarily.
-Climb. This skill made thiefy-type characters a hell of a lot more fun to play. No, levitation is NOT an acceptable substitute. It's just not the same as climbing up to the roof of a house and leaping from rooftop to rooftop ninja-style.

And as I said in a previous thread, whenever I got frustrated in Daggerfall, I'd strip naked, climb the nearest house, and go dancing on the town's rooftops while I fireballed everyone in sight. This is my favorite example of Daggerfall's freedom--the freedom to act like a complete homicidal retard, if the urge strikes you. To me, the freedom to go ninja rooftop running completely outweighed the fact that it was rather unrealistic to be able to run over gabled rooftops so easily. Compare that to Oblivion, where even if you manage to get on top of a house you can't move up towards the peak at all. I don't *care* if it would be unrealistic, I just want to go naked rooftop dancing! *sniff*

A Daggerfall-style Climb ability is absurdly easy to implement. Basically, you walk up to a flat surface, look up, and keep moving foward. You had a chance to fall off based on your Climb skill (this could be merged into athletics or acrobatics), and I suppose there could be a modifier based on the composition of the surface. That's it. Since MW and OB have third person views (DF didn't), someone would need to make a climbing animation, but that's not a huge deal.

Now *ideally* someone would be able to figure out surface transitioning. I'm not a programmer, but it seems fairly easy--you're moving in one direction along surface X, you encounter surface Y which is at an angle to surface X, you make another climb check and you transition to surface Y. In DF, you clipped right through the eaves, and I imagine that would be the easy and elegant solution in Oblivion, too (though mantling is another option.)

Again, you might have a few whiners out there saying that it doesn't look entirely realistic, but who the hell cares?! When you're running along the rooftops laden with stolen treasure, guards firing arrows at you from you down below, you'll thank me.

I remember the first time I played Morrowind I had no idea about Stilt Striders and I was trying desperately to get somewhere but these damn hills kept getting in my way. They were NOT that steep--I should have been able to get over them somehow, even if it meant at a reduced speed, but to my strong and athletic redguard, they represented a completely impassible barrier. Pissy and retarded, yet they choose to keep this "feature" in Oblivion.

Alternatives to climb include mantling and portable rope (deployable via spell, arrow, or grappling hook.)

-God-specific Temples. They weren't *hugely* unique, but there were a few important differences between the 8 different temple guilds... and no, I'm not talking about the naked girls in the temple of Dibella. One of them (Zenithar, god of Work and Commerce) let you advance just by making donations, one of them (Akatosh, god of Time) decreased you fast travel time, one of them (Mara, goddess of Love) increased your reputation with NPCs of the opposite gender, one of them (Stendarr, god of Mercy) gave you a small chance of immediately returning to life after you were killed, and one of them (Kynareth, goddess of Air) increased your breath meter.

Morrowind unified all of these gods into the imperial cult. Admittedly, this made sense--they had to band together in order to make any headway against the native Vvardenfell religion. Now that we're in Cyrodiil, I expected to see the return of individual gods' cults with their divinely-bestowed powers, even if the main religion itself remained unified. This did not happen; in fact there is no more imperial cult to join. WTF?

-Size. Daggerfall's land area was roughly the size of Great Britain. I'm not going to make a huge deal out of this one, because most of it was cookie-cutter and undetailed, but it was kind of neat to deal with all the different provinces and their knightly orders. I hope that some day we can reach this level of epic-ness again without making it all seem bland and cloned.

Speaking of knightly orders, I'm still waiting for them to do something with the Knights of the Lamp (non-magic using members of the Mages Guild who enjoy many Mage's Guild perks.) They were mentioned but not included as a joinable guild in Daggerfall, and haven't made an appearance since then.

***

I think all of the things we've lost, things us veterans are missing in Oblivion boils down to one of three things:

1. A lack of content, e.g. fewer guilds, towns, NPCs, etc. This may be one we'll just have to live with, because it's probably a tradeoff between more content and more detailed content. Personally, I'd rather Bethesda give us a smaller, more detailed world (and let the modders expand it.) However, I still think that Oblivion is a bit too small-feeling, especially in regards to the guilds and towns. This is the center of the frickin' empire, man! There should be a hell of a lot more going on.

2. A complete shafting of thieves, collectors, and explorers.

Stealing is freaking POINTLESS now. Disregarding the "must have a key" doors (which should not be nearly so common), if I have the ambition (and the willingness to save/reload a million times) and the lack of ninja-esque climbing and roofrunning, I should damn well be able to break into a mansion at level 5 and come out with a bunch of daedric stuff... just like a level 5 fighter with ambition (and the willingness to save/reload a million times) should be able to kill any monster in the game. Artificial restrictions suck. At low level, there's no such thing as "the big one"... only pieces of cheese and a few dozen septims, even if I manage to break into the richest mansion in all of Cyrodiil. R-E-T-A-R-D-E-D. And unrealistic. And not fun at all.

People who like to collect rare items are similarly restricted, because now either an item doesn't exist at all or it's practically raining from the sky (depending on your level.)

And people who like to explore and generally mess around doing stupid (but fun) stuff in this fantasy world run into all kinds of artificial restrictions--silly leveling, no climbing, inability to move up a steep slope (just like MW), no levitation (i.e. to wonderous ariel views or ariel battles. No flying through town having archery duels with the guards.) And as I said before, far far far too many doors are unpickable. Also, all you wildmen out there are forced to go back to town to level up. What does sleeping in a cozy bed have to do with becoming a better barbarian?

3. A dumbed-down character generator.

I laugh when I see all of the Morrowind fans talking about how Oblivion's character generator is inferior--YOU GUYS DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE MISSING. Daggerfall was king. Daggerfall was perfection, at least in concept (execution was a bit rough around the edges, even after the patches.) The only thing I would add to it is a system of gaining additional special abilities as you level up, similar to Fallout's perks or D&D 3rd edition's feats.

Look, we already have a huge list of premade classes for those of us who don't want to get our hands dirty. Stop wussing out when it comes to making custom classes! I want a character history. I want unique abilities. I want to be a hero, not an average schmuck.
Complaint #1 is not easily fixed (at what point will we have "enough" content?), but most likely will be at least partially addressed via expansions and mods. Beef #2 and #3 can be *trivially* fixed (the only semi-hard thing to do is Climb), and I think we should all lobby Bethesda to fix them.

I personally think that the first expansion pack should be thief-oriented; all we need is the ability to extinguish light sources, guard sensativity to sound, non-crappy item leveling, a little climbing (at least via portable rope, if nothing else) and suddenly we'll be able to do quests that put Thief: A Dark Project to shame. It'd be nice to have a DF-style character generator, but it's not going to happen unless all of us old school RPGers speak up. We don't have to be boring or average--we can be heros with our own unique powers and weaknesses.

If you agree with me at all, speak up! Not just in this thread, but in others--pick some reasonable complaints, and bring them up (in a nice way) again and again. Email Bethesda, if you haven't already. Be courteous, but be clear that this is going to affect your decision to buy Bethesda products in the future. I plan on snail mailing them for added emphasis, and I urge everyone else to do the same. I love the pretty graphics and nice combat of Oblivion, but TES is much more than that! More than anything else, TES was about FREEDOM and while Bethesda has done an AWESOME job fixing bugs, improving balance, and giving it more overall polish, I think that our freedom is suffering needlessly. Though I have faith in the mod community, an official solution would be much better than a mod solution for quality, for interoperability, and for those poor souls on the 360... plus, several of these problems cannot be addressed by mods at all.

These aren't things it would take Bethesda years and years to implement; they're very simple additions that were present in previous games, and they gave those previous games a sense of wonder and fun that Oblivion often lacks.

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Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:13 pm
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Felix Rex
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jesus christ, I can't believe I actually read all that.

Me, I won't be emailing or snail mailing bethesda. But interesting read anyway.

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Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:32 pm
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Ill read it sometime.

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Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:31 am
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