It is currently Sat Apr 27, 2024 2:34 pm



Reply to topic  [ 54 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
wow, anyone? 
Author Message
King
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:18 pm
Posts: 1976
Location: Sexy Town
Reply with quote
Post 
Thank you Satis

http://pc.ign.com/articles/534/534454p2.html

The Tech of Guild Wars

Quote:
ArenaNet's own Jeff Strain, co-founder and programmer, was nice enough to sit down and answer some of our questions about the new technology, what it does to make the game better, and how it's going to place Guild Wars a step above the competition.


Quote:
Guild Wars uses a very unique technology in the MMO genre. Can you give a simple explanation to start out, for those that haven't heard about it yet and how it can use a 90KB file to launch and sustain the game?

Jeff Strain: The Guild War's thin 90 KB client is a launch program that is designed to work with ArenaNet's streaming technology to start and automatically update Guild Wars with minimum input from the player.

The launch client essentially reaches out and establishes communication with an ArenaNet server. Once successful communication has occurred and you have created an account, the server examines the Guild Wars assets on your computer, recognizes where in the game process you are, and builds a file manifest of exactly what assets are needed for you to play the current version of Guild Wars.

If you are just starting, the manifest files are generally related to the art assets for character creation and the initial missions. With the file manifest determined, the prioritized information is streamed down to your hard drive. When you have received the initial startup files, Guild Wars will begin running and you can head into the game while the remaining assets continue to stream to you in the background. Generally, by the time you've created your first character, your system has downloaded the content to start the first mission, so you can continue playing the game without seeing a load screen.


Each time you log into the game or move into a new area, the file assets are checked against the latest file manifest to insure that you have the most recent files. Whenever possible, Guild Wars will try to download the files that you need while you are playing in another area of the game.

Another piece of our technology that makes this streaming of information possible is that each file in the Guild Wars program has an individual revision identifier. So when we make a change, we can tag only the files necessary to create the desired change in the game. When the program auto-updates and checks for new content, only these specific updated files are passed down to you. This is in contrast to current technology that uses a simplified file structure with a limited revision identifier. With this system, a great deal of content must be received and reloaded, potentially to update just a few files.

In summary, our 90KB client file works by determining just the specific assets you need to play Guild Wars, providing those files to you to get you up and playing, and then providing the rest of the content invisibly in the background.

We should note that once you have received the files on your hard drive you will not have to reacquire them unless they are changed. In this way the game's footprint on the computer will grow as the game content grows but you will only download the information you need once.


Do I need to clarify what "streaming" is? Also, anyone with network/server client experiance knows that a "thin client" is client comptuer that only has software to connect to the server and all programs are run off the server. Nothing in a thin client network is run on the clients computer.

Quote:
IGNPC: Can you explain what it means when the client contains only "dumb" assets and how this makes hacking more difficult?

Jeff Strain: While no game is hack-proof, our goal is to provide you a very secure game environment. We accomplish this by developing a game structure that is hard to break and easy to fix. The foundation of our secure gaming environment is our client asset model.

With Guild Wars, all the file assets placed on your computer are assets that are not directly associated with the logic of the game. Hence they are considered "dumb" assets. They include art assets, music files and the like. All of the files related to the logical systems of the game - the "intelligent" assets -- are held only on our secure servers. Limiting access to the intelligent assets of the game makes it more difficult for the game to be corrupted. Most games are designed first as a single-player experience, and the source files are stored on the gamer's computer. Therefore the files have a greater inherent vulnerability to hacking. The design of Guild Wars as an online-only game allows us to maintain our source code in the most secure manner possible, on our servers.


So, how can the game "go" if you only have the "dumb" files?

Quote:
IGNPC: Will any of the technology help with the lag that plagues so many of these types of games?

Jeff Strain: Yes, our technology gives us great tools to address lag. Designing Guild Wars to overcome lag was a core issue for ArenaNet, even more so than it would be for most games, because Guild Wars is a global game and you maybe playing with people from anywhere in the world.

Our team has tremendous experience building low-latency gaming networks. After all, when we built Battle.net, there was no such thing as broadband. However, while it's important to note that bandwidth and lag are somewhat related, they are not completely tied to one another. So it is not enough simply to use small amounts of bandwidth, you also have to design the game interaction model to mask latency introduced by the Internet. With Guild Wars we have designed the game to do both.

One technology Guild Wars uses to reduce lag is its predictive motion model. Rather than the server sending a packet several times per second with absolute positions for every unit, it sends a unit vector (direction and speed) describing its motion. The client and server both model the game in this fashion and the server only needs to communicate with the client when it knows that something in the client world is incorrect. At this point, the server just sends correction information to correct the client model. This greatly reduces perceived latency and bandwidth requirements.

It is important to note that even though both the client and server are modeling the world, the server is always the boss and only provides information to the client when necessary. This reduces exploits such as map hacks that give information to the players before they should know it.


So how can the server be the boss if your running your own instance on your computer?

Quote:
IGNPC: Speaking of bandwidth, Guild Wars has no monthly fee, which will be more than a little appealing to the masses. Assuming the game sells well, how are you preparing for a possible bandwidth onslaught?

Jeff Strain: We expect Guild Wars to do well and we are looking forward to having a large number of players consuming a great deal of bandwidth. So while we are maximizing bandwidth efficiency to make the game run as economically as possible, we are actually more focused on creating a game experience that allows the game to sell itself. In our opinion, the traditional MMO limits itself by charging a monthly fee and making more profit from a limited number of players. Our commitment is to offer a great game experience without a subscription fee, and we feel that having a larger community will balance our bandwidth costs....

Ironically, our preparation to offset bandwidth use and server costs is to create a game that a great number of people can play and enjoy. We feel the larger numbers of players who will purchase Guild Wars will offset bandwidth consumption and online infrastructure.


Last edited by ElevenBravo on Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:17 am
Profile ICQ YIM
Minor Diety
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2003 1:43 am
Posts: 4300
Reply with quote
Post 
Thank you satis.

However as my argument is that it *could* be possible to do, it still stands. Not seen that article before but its one of the rare ones as Anet rarely seem to talk about their servers (or anything for that matter...)

_________________
Image


Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:21 am
Profile WWW
King
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:18 pm
Posts: 1976
Location: Sexy Town
Reply with quote
Post 
More goodies

[quote]

http://gw.warcry.com/index.php/content/ufaq.php

One of the potential advantages of the streaming technology that has been mentioned involves cheat/hack/exploit prevention. Could you explain how the streaming technology will help in this regard? How do you intend to handle cheaters?

Streaming technology is just one tool Guild Wars uses to combat cheaters, albeit an important one. There is no magic bullet to guarantee that a game is cheat-proof. However, in the team at ArenaNet's experience, creating and running large-scale global game networks we have identified a few technologies that are essential to reaching that goal. [b]One is a pure client-server infrastructure, in which only the server holds the authoritative game state and clients simply react to server commands. Another is putting the client on a strict “need to knowâ€


Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:24 am
Profile ICQ YIM
Minor Diety
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2003 1:43 am
Posts: 4300
Reply with quote
Post 
Maybe but i've been arguing its possible, not that they do. I don't have a clue how most online games work (besides UO and Sacred, I know perfectly well how they work coz I spend far too much time on them). Plus note I posted a link that gave both for AND against what I was saying.

_________________
Image


Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:30 am
Profile WWW
King
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:18 pm
Posts: 1976
Location: Sexy Town
Reply with quote
Post 
pevil wrote:
Plus note I posted a link that gave both for AND against what I was saying.


Note that I only posted the facts and not fiction or speculation.

Good day.

_________________
Contrary to popular belief, America is not a democracy, it is a Chucktatorship.
Image


Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:32 am
Profile ICQ YIM
Minor Diety
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2003 5:09 pm
Posts: 4003
Location: Walsall, West Mids, UK
Reply with quote
Post 
Wait just one cotton pickin' minute 11b, that post also proves my point depending on which way you look at it.

To make a long story short, replace "the server" with my computer.

It is still entirely posible that my local machine is the server. My map details, charachter details etc can still be varyfied against that on the main GW servers, (Or data servers, if what I am saying is true)

the predictive nature of the program can still work between me and my party. The streaming technology gives me and my clients the updates, the streaming update information has no baring on if I am a host or not. Think about it, if I'm hosting most of the game, all they have to do is pass info about stats and, just like the quote says:

Quote:
Each time you log into the game or move into a new area, the file assets are checked against the latest file manifest to insure that you have the most recent files. Whenever possible, Guild Wars will try to download the files that you need while you are playing in another area of the game


Holy moly! That's exactly what I said! This is precisely the same as checking for integrity. There for, even if I am the server, My map is legit. There is nothing to say that they don't do the same for each charachter.

So then, Why can't I map hack? Because the main server is checking on me. Why can't my clients map hack? because the integrity checking prevents them from doing so.

In regards to the "Dumb" files, I do believe a lot of this is based on downloading the game.

Quote:
In summary, our 90KB client file works by determining just the specific assets you need to play Guild Wars, providing those files to you to get you up and playing, and then providing the rest of the content invisibly in the background.


Goes with what you said

Quote:
We should note that once you have received the files on your hard drive you will not have to reacquire them unless they are changed. In this way the game's footprint on the computer will grow as the game content grows but you will only download the information you need once.


Oh shit, now the files are on my computer.

Just one more for now, me thinks

Quote:
all the file assets placed on your computer are assets that are not directly associated with the logic of the game. Hence they are considered "dumb" assets. They include art assets, music files and the like. All of the files related to the logical systems of the game - the "intelligent" assets -- are held only on our secure servers.


There could easily be a main GW server that does the logic. It still doesn't mean that I am not hosting, in any way. Infact, It may be passing me the information, Or even intercepting the information between me and clients, and processing it that way. Still, There needs to be a visual representation for everyone to see. I could still be handling that.

As pevil said, It may not be the case, but it could be true.

EDIT:

ElevenBravo The Great wrote:

Note that I only posted the facts and not fiction or speculation.

Good day.


Well what the heck are you doing in a thread that is based entirely on speculation then? No one ever said speculation isn't true, it's merely something based on opinion, and at the end of the day, opinion can very easily coincide with both fact and fiction. We're merely stating that it is entirely possible for this to be the way it's done.

[quote]
One is a pure client-server infrastructure, in which only the server holds the authoritative game state and clients simply react to server commands. Another is putting the client on a strict “need to knowâ€


Last edited by Mole on Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:42 am
Profile WWW
Minor Diety
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2003 1:43 am
Posts: 4300
Reply with quote
Post 
ElevenBravo The Great wrote:
pevil wrote:
Plus note I posted a link that gave both for AND against what I was saying.


Note that I only posted the facts and not fiction or speculation.

Good day.


note if i'd FOUND any facts i'd have posted them. Whilst i enjoy debating I don't enjoy 'n00b fights' or pointed barbed comments so please keep those out. I was happy enough to thank Satis for showing us some facts, I was happy for you to show me the article, I didn't reply with anything insulting to you so I'd appreciate if you don't post such a pointless reply to me thank you.

Now I think this is as far as this thread is gonna go so once more I shall ignore this forum until more cool Oblivion news comes out ;)


Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:44 am
Profile WWW
King
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:18 pm
Posts: 1976
Location: Sexy Town
Reply with quote
Post 
/rubs eyes

Mole, do you even know what a "thin client" is? Here is the tech defienition

http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/T/thin_client.html

Quote:
In client/server applications, a client designed to be especially small so that the bulk of the data processing occurs on the server.


Guild Wars is a thin client setup.

This is the tech defiention of streaming

http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/s/streaming.html

Quote:
A technique for transferring data such that it can be processed as a steady and continuous stream. Streaming technologies are becoming increasingly important with the growth of the Internet because most users do not have fast enough access to download large multimedia files quickly. With streaming, the client browser or plug-in can start displaying the data before the entire file has been transmitted.

For streaming to work, the client side receiving the data must be able to collect the data and send it as a steady stream to the application that is processing the data and converting it to sound or pictures. This means that if the streaming client receives the data more quickly than required, it needs to save the excess data in a buffer. If the data doesn't come quickly enough, however, the presentation of the data will not be smooth.


Ok so now, I know this is hard to do but, take "thin client" and "streaming" and combine them together. Guild Wars client is a "thin client" and the main "SERVER"(NOT YOUR PC) does all the work which means the server only has to send you very small bits of information of the internet which is where they save money on bandwidth.

When you stream a video are you hosting it? No
When you stream music is the music hosted on your pc ? No

If the only thing on the client comptuer is "dumb" files like art and stuff and all the real meat of the game is processed on the server(ANET) then whats the point of having 7 people connect to a client computer? What if that client has dialup? Why reroute packets all of the internet?


and you whole "OMG LETS CHANGE THE WORD SERVER TO MY COMPUTER " is about as retarded as your claim. Did Jeff say "the clients computer?" Did anywhere in his article did he mention hosting instances on "client machines"? No so why would you jump to the conclusion to start changing words?

_________________
Contrary to popular belief, America is not a democracy, it is a Chucktatorship.
Image


Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:54 am
Profile ICQ YIM
Minor Diety
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2003 5:09 pm
Posts: 4003
Location: Walsall, West Mids, UK
Reply with quote
Post 
Haha, Nice reasoning there.

So, You may have me on the thin client, however, it's still very, very possible, that it runs like that, with one person still being the server.

I'm gunna say this for the last time, IT'S FREAKING POSSIBLE. I know what streaming is, you don't need to tell me that.

I don't see how streaming video etc relates to me hosting something. I could still host something and be streaming the data for it to my PC, as could a client.

And as to your dial up comment, well by golly gee whizz, what do you think server selection is? Oh, I don't know, could it be where the computer with the highest ping and/or best tech setup is selected to be the host? Shock horror! I think it is! This happens automatically in hundreds of online games. Especially Xbox live ones, as the idea is to simplify it for the user.

Jeff may not have said "the clients computer" No, but the fact of the matter, in plain and simple english, IS THAT IT STILL WORKS. Replacing it like I suggested, the article still makes sense, given that you keep in mind there would still be a server at a higher tier, streaming the media to either my pc, or (and more likely) all the PC's in that session. It's not so hard to understand, And I don't get why you are so opposed to what, in theory, is a brilliant idea.

I think you've been employed by Arena net to keep us from find the truth. You don't know how hard it is to keep this post civil, and I know for a fact you don't as you appear to be having a problem doing so in your posts.

When it boils down to it, I know my idea is perfectly pheasable, and that is all I am trying to prove, yet, I have already proven it. Which brings me to the question, why am I still trying to explain it, especially to someone who has his mind closed so tight, that there is no point?

Seriously, this is like arguing with a 13 year old, so I'm going to stop right here, knowing full well, that my idea works.

I suggest you grow up a little, 11b, realise that being proving others wrong isn't the only thing worth doing on internet forums. From this point on, the discusion is closed, (besides, I think we derailed the thread a little, heh) I accept that the links and quotes you give are valid, I was never trying not to prove that.

And in your oh so wise words, Good day.

_________________
Games to complete:
GTA IV [100%] (For Multiplayer next!)
Fallout 3 [50%]
Rock Band [35%]
http://www.cafepress.com/SmeepProducts


Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:22 pm
Profile WWW
Reply with quote
Post 
Mole, suck my balls.


pwned


Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:16 pm
King
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:18 pm
Posts: 1976
Location: Sexy Town
Reply with quote
Post 
That wasnt me.

_________________
Contrary to popular belief, America is not a democracy, it is a Chucktatorship.
Image


Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:19 pm
Profile ICQ YIM
Felix Rex
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 6:01 pm
Posts: 16650
Location: On a slope
Reply with quote
Post 
dude....no. It can't run on your local computer

Your hypothesis that when you 'rezone' or whatever it checks to make sure that your items are 'valid' doesn't work.

What if you set up a program that sets up an instance, pushes your character into it and has him sit there for 20 minutes while feeding him 100 coins every 15 seconds. As far as GW would be concerned, you spent 30 minutes in an instance and made 180plat. What really happened is you didn't do shit, and you have it set to automatically do this every 30 minues, 24 hours a day. You are now a plat machine. Hell, you could put this on a little piece of shit crash box and just pretend to actually make an instance...you could just fake the network traffic.

Or you could set up a farm of pentium 133 computers doing this. You could make hundreds of millions of gold pieces a day, without actually playing.

It is stupid to run an instance on an uncontrolled PC. It's stupid to run anything at all on an uncontrolled PC except what you absolutely can't help but run on there. Even such basic things as distributing content (like a bit-torrent network) isn't a good idea, because someone could slip in their own code and contaminate a huge number of client installs.

So...no. Damnit. And it's a bad idea to boot.

_________________
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:27 pm
Profile WWW
Minor Diety
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2003 1:43 am
Posts: 4300
Reply with quote
Post 
no it was someone from Canada. From near Hudson Bay apparently; 60.0000° LATITUDE and -95.0000° LONGITUDE using Adelphia Cable Communications. hehe.


Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:29 pm
Profile WWW
King
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:18 pm
Posts: 1976
Location: Sexy Town
Reply with quote
Post 
Satis wrote:
dude....no. It can't run on your local computer



LOOK! if we change no to yes and can't to can then it says

dude...yes. It can run on your local computer. Which means Mole is right!

_________________
Contrary to popular belief, America is not a democracy, it is a Chucktatorship.
Image


Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:01 pm
Profile ICQ YIM
Reply with quote
Post 
pevil wrote:
no it was someone from Canada. From near Hudson Bay apparently; 60.0000° LATITUDE and -95.0000° LONGITUDE using Adelphia Cable Communications. hehe.


*edit from Satis*
removed slow link
If you're interested in continuing posting, I suggest you make an account. Anonymous trolls aren't appreciated.


Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:59 pm
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 54 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 112 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware.