hehehe...i doubt belgium could have stopped one batallion of the german army even if it tried


But granted, the quote was overgeneralizing, obviously some wars bring a state of relative peace along but still. There's usually a clear action-reaction pattern, like in WWII: German ppl frustrated because of their loss in WWI and the absurd economical sanctions it brought along->nazi party make populist rise, nazi's start warmongering, soon whole of europe in war, then japan and US etc.
So there you had like:

zillions of coalitions of countries out of old grudges->murder of archduke ferdinand->coalitions come into play->everyone fighting everyone->among others Germany big loser->huge economical sanctions for Germany from archenemy France a.o.->Germans feel fucked->naziparty->revenge->WW2->coalitions->war in entire europe->then outside europe->then done.

It's a miracle we haven't had a war since if you think of it. 60 years of peace in europe, goddamn.

The US civil war has brought more peace then anything else, but the southerners still hold a grudge against the Northeners, hundreds of years later. Not enough to start a war, but you never know.

If israel idd pushed on it'd wipe out palestina in a week, but the power-difference is so huge that it's not even a war then.


Concluding: yes, sometimes a war is unavoidable, but any "game" that has losers also has ppl that want to take revenge, and we all know humanity is both a sore loser and vengeful. hehe


Good point on the iraq-reason thing Satis.

I think WWII is a perfect example on how war could have been usefull.
On Iraq: resolution 1441 didn't say Iraq shouldn't have WMD, it said Iraq would have to comply with inspections of it's weapon program, just like eleven UN resolutions before 1441. Iraq had violated all those resolutions so there was plenty of reason to attack Iraq, one of them being that then the UN would seem to have at least some power to enforce it's resolutions, unfortunately France blew that chance because of the reasons I mentioned earlier.
Now the USA and the UK had to act without the security counsel's agreement, with the result that now the UN is seen as an institute that holds no power over it's members.
But how many evil regimes would pay heed to what the UN sais when an uberevil regime like that of Saddam Hussein was allowed to break all the rules?

I'm sorry but reading something like this fills me with blind rage and fury. I'm going to try to be civil, as I'm sure you're a nice guy ElevenBravo, but saying that major global wars fall under a "who cares what other people think" category isn't just even plain dumb anymore. It goes beyond that.

I'm not judging the war, I'm not going there, because then I'll be here till december, but a little perspective on "what other people think" might not hurt America. At All.

Like i said: the current attitude is not likely to be forgotten when somewhere in the future the US would really need assistance.

It's true that the UN security council is fucked an a relic of WW2, you could argue both ways on how fucked it's role was on (not) deciding to attack iraq:

->US has no hard time in getting the required 9 votes from countries like Angola, Benin etc. who are non-permamnetn members of the SC, they'd love to kiss the US's ass. (understandably)
->France can stop all action by using its permanent member veto. (which is fucked too)

Both pretty lame ways of getting what you want. They shoudl get rid of the permanent member shit, which is more easily said than done ofcourse, but still.

I think they should get rid of the veto, but that decision would be vetoed by the countries having that veto.

And about the attitude, I found it very amusing that the US said that countries opposed to the war weren't in the running to get any contracts for the rebuilding of Iraq, and that the next day they sent Powell to those same countries asking them to lift Iraq's debt. Sometimes i feel very sorry for tht man, he must be the only intelligent guy in the administration.

Thank you! You couldnt have said it better.



Thats not true. Sure we call Notherners "yankees" But seriously, their arnt any grudges. We are "America" now.



I didnt make my point clear enough. A country has every right to defend itself. Thats what the US did. Alot of people and countries thought it was a bad idea. My point is "Who cares what they think"

Look, if Hitlers son got a bunch of NeoNazi together and started takeing over your country and you decided to fight back, because its the right thing to do, but the US said " you shouldnt fight back, make peace" would you and your fellow country man realy care what we said? No you wouldnt, your going to do whats right for your country and your people regaurdless what anyone else says.

If your at a bar and some guy calls your wife a whore and your buddies tells you "Dont start a fight" Are you reall going to care what he says? No, your going to kick this guy straight in the nuts then when he bends over to grab himself knee him in the face and then kick him in the stomach. You dont care what they have to say about it.

The war in Iraq was NOT a war for America's survival. It was not only about oil, it was also a distraction from the fact that the Bush administration could not get their hands on Osama. So some clever git in the White House comes up with the idea to blame Saddam for it. They hate him anyway, it's the perfect idea. They can be seen fighting terrorism (yeah right! Saddam and Osama hated eachother's guts. Saddam actuammy released memo's telling his people not to work with Al Quaeda in the vent of his capture as he completely distrusted them. The only thing they had in common was being huge assholes) and they can get rid of the only major player in the Gulf that still bugs them. All they have to do is invent some phoney reasons to invade and there you go.

Now call me old mister sceptic, but I don't believe one iota about that whole "We deposed him because he was evil" thing either. There's anough dictators being supported by the US.

So you see: your argument just doesn't cut wood. The threat to your security did NOT come from Iraq. therefore there was no legitimate reason to attack them and to endanger the world's stability in such a way.

[quote="ElevenBravo The Great"]Look, if Hitlers son got a bunch of NeoNazi together and started takeing over your country and you decided to fight back, because its the right thing to do, but the US said " you shouldnt fight back, make peace" would you and your fellow country man realy care what we said? No you wouldnt, your going to do whats right for your country and your people regaurdless what anyone else says. [quote]


That's totally different, Iraq wasn't in a hundred years invading the US nor did it mean a realistic threat to it (other than economical threats). Besides, by your logic you're justifying the bombings and shootings pf US soldiers in Iraq atm. Which can't be true, obviously.

And the barfight metaphore depends on circumstances. If it's a 5-man gang of real tough biatches i'm not gonna try and get my ass kicked for a simple insult. Just like the US should think twice on invading this and that country. You can do "the right thing", but it's not worth it to get in as much problems as the US is getting itself into now.

I despair. I really do. Can you actually Fucking hear yourself? You sound like a fucking Hillbilly with a shotgun man!

You people should know that I am not considered very left-wing by people who know me. I'm just extremely afraid of people like 11b. I'm sorry man, but I just found out that you scare me very much. If that is your world order view we're in for a horrible horrible future...

There are two ways of getting to peace: through war and through talks.
WWII is a good example on how it had to be solved by war, Hitler would never have stopped no matter how nicely you asked him. On the other hand many other conflicts can be solved by talks, like the conflict between Ethiopia and Eritrea.
I don't think Saddam would ever have stopped no matter how long you would have talked.

Well, obviously not. Like i said; i don't believe wars are unavoidable, i just loathe the way the US are conductiong themselves in world politics nowadays. Like a bull in a porcelain-shop.


Not really contributing to the discussion but still funny; saw a simpsons episode just now, which ended with bart and milhouse saying:


M: "you know Bart, i've learned that war isn't the solution."
B: "that's right Milhouse. Except to all of America's problems."

*end*

lmao

Dude, come on. Be REALISTIC. Im not some hill billy shotgun toteing idiot. I mean even Satis agreed with me because hes thinking "realisticly".
Yes I fucking hear myself and Im right. Only after won side has defeated the other is there peace. Do you ever think Bin Laden is going to come to "peace" with the US? NO so guess what we have to do to make peace! KILL HIM or CAPTURE HIM.

I mean the Isreal / Palastin example is perfect. Has there ever been peace there? NO. The only way peace will ever come from that situation is one when side has defeated the other.
World War 2. There could only be 2 outcomes. The Allies lay down their weapons and let Hilter defeat them..or we fight back and defeat the Axies. I mean it doesnt come any clearer than that. If you dont believe this to be true you are in denial and need to quit smoking the dope. I dont think war is good or anything nor do I think anyone should go to war but its the truth.


Please, not the " it was about oil" crap. I bet you think Bush wants to go to Mars so he can drill for more oil ? Right?

http://www.liquidgeneration.com/poptoon ... utkast.asp


lmao


Mars is just a megalomaniac plan, for a change.

lmao!

11b's view on peace=war and war=peace is for me relatively over generalised. However, you cannot deny that the concept is irrational or either fictional.

If you were to spet aside from the political viewpoint or the war and look at the humanitarian side, i feel the people living in Iraq will be better off in the future. If what 11b is saying scares you, then perhaps you are in denial about our very humane nature. We are highly flawed creatures and have always really been.