One does not know good, if one has not seen bad.

You limiting yourself to one thought a day now, Derf?

I'm not sure I grok your meaning. 'Bad' is an awfully relative term.

why does the football, always go in to the yard of the neighbour who hates you/it most?

heh, this is turning into my old topic "Temple of Wisdom"

Remember?

lol, next we'll have,

for those who are at the bottom, the only way is up, but for those at the top, likewise their path leads down. Eventually, we all pass on. And we are at neutral levels with each other.

in other words... why try? you're all gunna die anyway, so make the most of not being able to do anything, befor you get stuck in the middle with all the prats from above and below you

doesn't my christian faith just shine... *laughing at self*

i take it you mean dying? But wouldnt it be worth doing our best?

Well, I'll re write it, because thats not entirely what i meant.

i meant more like, We all end up dead, but some of us enjoy putting in the effort to make our selfs happy, and others are happier doing nothing. Which is both fair enough - but if you can't don't stress about it, because ULTIMATLEY it's not worth it. Obviously, I believe in Heaven and Hell, but I figure you get in on what kind of person you are, and would be if you needed to be, rather than what you have achieved. Because even an evil person could be nice to get in to heaven, so it's whats inside that counts.

(sorry for all the non-believers out there, or people of other religion)

That would imply that you believe in ppl being inherently good or bad, and thus, predestination.


And heaven and hell are crap...i mean; "good" and "bad" are such vague, many-facetted and often meaningless instances that it's hard to believe that there is such a thing as heaven, or hell.

If we go through on this thought; namely the many different approaches on what's good or bad in different cultures, ages and minds + the belief of a heaven and hell= implies that one of the religions ,or non-religious tought patterns in the world is right, and thus superior to the others. But since heaven and hell are inherently religious concepts, it's the former, and not the latter. So, that means you started thinking, inconsciously, out of a religious, presumeably christian frame, and any conceptual thought must try to be as non-prejudiced as possible, even if total non-prejudicedness* is a never achievable ideal. Thus the reasoning must be void.


Sorry if i'm sounding arrogant lol...not trying to be, just bored and feeling fucked cos exam is going to suck. Decontructivism 0wnz
j00 though!



P.S. *complete non-prejudicedness is impossible for many reason, not in the least because of the limitations of language. After all, we think in language.

ok, if I understood that, Which I didn't, you are talking modern day. Where all religions (except strange cults that pop up) are ancient things, now, I aint no Historian, but there was no way, that we all used to think in language, or even, in different languages way back when. So there must have been some concept of pejudice free (not entirely) group belief going on back then, for some or all of these religions to crop up now.

Now I did do R.E. (when to a Church of England school, had to) and I know that Chritian, Muslim, jewish and any other religions, Don't date back from cavemen days. But this could simply be because there was no way to record it.

If you look closely at religions, especialy the muslim and christian faith, it is pretty much the same story, just the odd bit missing or added in either. So some how, some where, the thoughts of "good and bad" "right and wrong" "heaven and hell" cropped up.

If you know any religious stuff, you might know that one of the arguments for the existance of God, is because we "think" it, we think there is a God. some how, that thought has survived all these years, till now.

Something must be "keeping the faith"

"Man's unfailing capacity to believe what he prefers to be true rather than what the evidence shows to be likely and possible has always astounded me. We long for a caring Universe which will save us from our childish mistakes, and in the face of mountains of
evidence to the contrary we will pin all our hopes on the slimmest of doubts. God has not been proven not to exist, therefore he must exist."


As for religion and God being a historic pattern: that was just because mankind needed an explanation for things it couldn't grasp, that and a religious "elite" who tried to hold on to power for a loooong time. It's no surprise that it's in an age where we are finally beginning to understand some of the basics of life religion is wasting away. Religion can only be seen as folklore these days. Unless someone can prove me that God exists.

The simplest of thought trains can prove the inherent contradiction in believing in a non-manifest God.

World->full of shit
If you claim that there is such a thing as God, you claim that God is an asshole. But ppl who believe in God believe God is just; on top of that.

That would assume, indirectly, that everyone who's worse off then yourself, in Africa, or terminal diseases and whatnot, is less worth a person than yourself, since God is just. And if anyone were to make such a claim he's an ass, so few ppl claim that. So, on the contrary of their thoughts God is void. Or a bastard, or doesn't care.

"God is either stupid, powerless, or doesn't give a shit"


As for thinking in language: we always have. Animals think in language too, but animal language is different from human, obviously. Human language is economic (you can make new words out of existing ones), and most importantly, it can have double layers of meaning. Animal language cannot, it's functional and nothing more than that. There was a point in histiry where we shifted from animal to human lingo, and certain ape species show, after intensive training, signs of being able to make abstract statements. (for example; talk about a ball which is outside)


In short...if anyone can prove to me the existance of God, i'll be glad to run along. But even then, god will be just a bastard, as i pointed out. But the way it is now; having to prove that does NOT exist, is total bollocks...there's not a single thing in the world that requires the same approach, just because some elitarian religions made it so that God, a priori, MUST exist.

If you run into someone on the street telling you that he can read your mind, but doesn't want to prove it by reading yours, you'll say "bollox!". But if someone says God exists, but he doesn't need to prove it, rather you have to prove he doesn't, then everyoen gets down on his knees and starts praying. Doesn't make sense, does it?

Some fair points there 'Ox. May i add one?

Mans instinctual need for a leader has been present from the very first days. Our ancerstors once were all running around in Africa some time ago hunting, eating, dying. But they were all doing this in packs. Very much like the Lions, only more active.

However, a pack can not operate without a leader. Not having a leader contradicts the very need for a pack. So therefore, our African ancestors chose a leader in their pack.

Eventually, as our African ancestors started to migrate and become more adapt to thinking (more importantly imagining) they found themselves short of answers. Answers such as that to "What are rainbows?", therefore, they decided that a new leader must be found to feed their curiosity.

Thus, appeared God.

He was great. He had all the answers.

To prove that God was/wasn't our creation, we must find evidence that out African Ancestors left behind for us. But this is impossible, as all things die. So therefore leaves us with no evidence that both God does and doesn't exist.

Evidence or no, It seems a coincidence that our greatest leader, whom we all know, is not here to prove himself.

*whats that? i smell shit!*

All good points, tho I don't appreciate some of them. But I got an A in RE and I aint going down with out a fight.

Firstly - everone believes in something. Athiest believe in them selves, Christians believe in God, and so on. You say the "proving God doesn't exist" thing is Bull. But the square and basicness of it all, Is you Can't. Admitidley, I can't prove God does exist. But the enventuality is that you Have to believe in something. Believing in your self could get you call a self righteous (sp?)but muncher, or you could just be building up confidence.

The truth is, Nearly everone turns to God, despite it just being a saying nowa days. e.g. "For God's Sake" "For the love of God" or even (though not god) "Jesus Christ" It has come to be, that so much faith does exist, in different religions, and I still argue that God has survived in many peoples faith, where science goes on to strugle to prove his non existance.

The major flaw in sceintific evidence is this.

"Why?"

whatcha mean with "didn't appreciate"? As in "felt offended"? Cos that was never my goal, and i don't think i called you any names either. Sorry if it still sounded offensive.


Anyways...i believe in something yeah

I believe that i am alive and that there are ppl around me, and that i have to take them in account, to a certain degree, to manoeuvre myself easily enough through life. I believe in feeling fine in what i'm doing, and i don't need a God to make that possible, do I? I can honestly say i don't believe in a greater goal or a God, maybe not even myself depending on how one would define that, and i still don't feel the need to throw myself off a building because "it's no use". And that's not because there must be a god; but because i have a will to live. Everything has a will to live. ANY wounded animal will still try to walk and pick up its life, even if it's guts are dangling out. The only reason why men (as in, mankind, not male ppl) commit suicide, or give up and die, is because they can make abstract reasoning.

For example:

you're being tortured in a horrific manner, and you beg for fast death. You, as a human, beg for death because you can imagine the pain going on and dying anyway, because you are AWARE of the situation. An animal will not make the abstraction "mm, if i run around with my guts hanging out it'll hurt more than when i throw myself of a cliff, so let's flyyyyy"

As for suicide: Same story basically; for example when you've hit the bottom SO hard you think life has lost its use, and you put an end to it. Again, because you make abstract ideas. Be it about how much worse it'll get later on anyway; or over-thinking your own misery and feeling sorry for yourself. Needless to say, most suicide is the result of unnecessary thought patterns.



Science and God:

The reason why the west is technologically much more advanced than the rest of the world is plain and simple: the fact that the west has largely thrown off it's religious coil. That's even the subject of study of one of the more recent antropological directions. The first thing a religious-dominated society will try to do is to silence anyone or anything that contradicts their world view, despite having not a single empirical ground to stand on. Look at the excesses of any fundamentalist regime: destroying landmarks of different cultures, killing and/or silencing everyone with a different opinion. Look at the witch-burnings and the inquisition in our own history, even. I would think that a religion that is strong on itself, wouldn't need to defend itself in such maniacal fevor, right? Let alone going on a killing spree for the "greater good".

To get back to the point: God. You might say "sure, religion isn't flawless, but it's man who does those things and man isn't flawless" But it's hard to imagine a God allowing such things to be done for thousands of years, when he's supposedly written down the exact opposite in Bible, Thora, Koran, whatnot. Bush is supa-dupa religious, but when they take down the WTC; what did he do? Turn the other cheeck? No way sirree, he bombed Afghanistan (further) into the stone age and searched half the globe for Osama.


In conclusion; if you want to believe in God based on rather "gut" than ratio then that's fine, i won't bash anyone for being religious lol.

But your reasoning is a circular reasoning, and therefore invalid:

God must exist, cos many ppl believe in him.

But the reason why those "many ppl" believe in the existance of God is exactly the same as the initial one; namely that they see that others believe in him.

hmmm *skims back over post* don't worry - i just don't like you claiming thats the result of God's work is crap. But think about it this way,

God built earth. God told human, to be the stewards of the earth. This means it is up to US. Not God, to look after out planet. Now I'm not saying God doesn't care - Armageddon. Of course, we will not know if Armageddon does or doesn't exist untill it happens, or doesn't. But eventually the end of the world will have to come. Perhaps us humans are to bring about our own armagedon at the point in time that we have "gone over the top" and well and trully fucked our world up. Or mayhaps one day, God will think, thats it, they had there chance, time to try again, And Kill us all. And he would do it. God is merciful yes, but then he also is vengful. Disrespect earth, Disrespect God's work. Though now I'm going of the point.

And here is something to think about - Devil worshipers, Satanist. They believe in God to. They have to. For with out God, there would be no Satan. Perhaps Humans them selves are Satan. And are slowly punishing them selves. but what ever.

And on the sceince. Sceince can only reason with in measurable parameters. Where as if God exists, surely based up on history, He would be this ultimate presence and hence not measurable. Sceince aplies rules. God made those rules. What are the chances that earth could have just happened? I'd say unlikely, something had to spark it. Something clever. I mean, sceintists are working on how the human brain works, and slowly they are coming to terms with it. But something must have said, way back when, that this is how it works. and so it was written.

The problem with sceince - God is "good" sceinec potentialy is both Good an evil. Vacinations/Poisons, Nuclear Power/Nuclear Weapons. Humans are brought up to be Good (at least in most families) this Good, existed before sceince. Sceince, and mankind, bought evil in to the world. Again leading to Armagedon. The event that brings about the ridding of everything.

We're back at the beginning tho; you're arguing within a frame of religion and "good" and "evil" again. Nothing is inherently good or evil.

Besides, if we go tru on your thought of God giving man free reign on the earth and see how he fare; wouldn't it be strange if God would at the same time let us have "free" choice in acting, thinking, feeling; and on the other hand impose on us "good" or "bad"? That doesn't make sense.


The idea of God limiting man's capacity to understand life, and/or himself might have stood 100 years ago, but imo it's long overridden by now. We can clone stuff, for example. And make artificial, or even better, almost "grow" organs. A God that wouldn't allow man to mess with his creation would have had to eradicate us long before now. Armageddon will come, but for pure human reasons, or being hit by a meteorite, or in the longest run, death of the sun.


The chance that earth ever happened are idd very, very, VERY slim. But it did. Taking in account the hugeness of the universe there's bound to be some other life form somewhere, but we'll very ikely never meet it. (for the record; i'm not an alien believer lol. It's just empirically plausible that somewhere else ever life will develop)


Mm, i don't wanna be the only one with arguments against here. Satis, get your Satan-worshipping ass in here! And Derf, expand your arguments!